Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roach Clips · 01-03-2007, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Is Islam the problem or is it the politics?

Now let me address where Starshark avoids the issue of misogyny in Islam through what appears to be purposeful omission of issues. Rape is perhaps the single most traumatic crime which shows a difference between Islamic law and the rest of the world. Yes the crime of rape happens everywhere, but only under the Islamic Shariah law does a women have to provide four witnesses to prove she was raped and has not committed the sex crime of zina (extramarital or premarital sex). Recently the country of Pakistan voted to update its rape law to a more modern standard, and these changes were protested against as “un-Islamic”. Imagine a women who is raped and can not report the crime because she doesn’t have four male witnesses to testify on her behalf. If she reports the crime she has confessed to zina and can be punished by stoning.

I got a question:

Rathpig says "under the Islamic Shariah law does a women have to provide four witnesses to prove she was raped and has not committed the sex crime of zina (extramarital or premarital sex)." Now the Qu'ran says "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors." I believe this is the passage Rathpig is referring to but this is talking about allegations against women who committed adultry and doesn't mention rape. I must be missing something, what am I missing?

premjan · 01-03-2007, 12:30 AM

Basically apologists say that the rape law (four witnesses) was originally made to protect women from baseless adultery allegations. I guess in those days adultery or claimed adultery was a bigger problem than rape. The whole notion of volition is not taken seriously in Islam. It doesn't matter whether the person wanted sex or not - it only matters whether they were legally married to the person they had sex with (or if a man, legally owned the woman as a slave). Allah is so all-powerful that individual will is insignificant and sought to be extinguished within the hive mind.

But it is still bad because people being as jealous and sexually possessive as they are, will tend to see guilt sooner than not in matters of adultery, infidelity etc.

Roach Clips · 01-03-2007, 12:03 PM

I still don't understand how a passage that refers to adultry applies to rape cases?

Toto · 01-03-2007, 12:20 PM

Shariah on adultery

Quote:

In cases of adultery, shari'ah resorts to particularly drastic measures. Rape creates an especially difficult burden of proof for the victim. Shari'ah law only provides for punishment in cases of adultery, if both parties admit to have committed the "crime". If this is not the case, four independent witnesses have to be found; however, the witnesses must be male. In cases of rape, shari'ah rules that a rapist is to be punished with 100 lashes, if unmarried, or with death by stoning, if married, since this would then constitute adultery.

A pregnancy as a result of rape first of all counts as evidence of adultery committed by the woman. The rape victim then has to prove that she really was raped. In case the man - which is very likely - denies that he has raped the woman, the woman has to name four male witnesses to prove the rape. In case the woman does not find these four male witnesses - which again is very likely - she will be charged with slander.

For the crime of slander, shari'ah prescribes a punishment of 80 lashes. On top of that, the woman will be charged with adultery, and is thus threatened with the death penalty, if she is married. In case, she is unmarried, the "adultery" counts as immoral behaviour and is punished with 100 lashes. This is at least what the criminal code of January 2000 of the Nigerian state Zamfara says.

The victim carries the burden of proof

In the case of rape it may thus happen - and in most cases this is what seems to happen - that the victim has to prove that she was raped. One can argue about moral attitudes. In our world it sometimes, too, is difficult to find a consensus of what is right and what is wrong. In the West, too, until a couple of years ago, a rape victim had difficulties to assert herself in court. ....

Shari'ah even prescribes the size of the stones with which the convict is to be killed: not too small, because then they would not cause death, but not to large either, because then the convict probably dies as soon as the first stone hits. By the way, the Qur'an does not even have that kind of punishment for adultery: The Qur'an speaks of 100 lashes and that is that, though cruel enough (see Sura 24,2 and 24,3).

dhimmiwatch

Quote:

Of course, these laws are based on the notorious incident in which Muhammad's wife Aisha was accused of adultery. The brouhaha was settled when Muhammad received a revelation from Allah requiring four witnesses: "Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!" (Qur'an 24:13).

Blui · 01-03-2007, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roach Clips

I got a question:

Rathpig says "under the Islamic Shariah law does a women have to provide four witnesses to prove she was raped and has not committed the sex crime of zina (extramarital or premarital sex)." Now the Qu'ran says "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors." I believe this is the passage Rathpig is referring to but this is talking about allegations against women who committed adultry and doesn't mention rape. I must be missing something, what am I missing?

Islamic law stems from the Quran and the Hadiths, many of the Islamic practices especially legal ones stem from the Hadiths only.

Like death to Apostates (ex-Muslims) only comes from the Hadiths.

Toto gave you the correct stuff,if you still are skeptical ill get the Hadith.

Roach Clips · 01-03-2007, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blui

Islamic law stems from the Quran and the Hadiths, many of the Islamic practices especially legal ones stem from the Hadiths only.

Like death to Apostates (ex-Muslims) only comes from the Hadiths.

Toto gave you the correct stuff,if you still are skeptical ill get the Hadith.

Please do.

BTW, what's a Hadith? :huh:

Are they part of the Qu'ran? What do they mean to Muslims?

Bobinius · 01-04-2007, 12:18 AM

How about this suras?

24:6 As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;

24:7 And yet a fifth, invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is of those who lie.

24:8 And it shall avert the punishment from her if she bear witness before Allah four times that the thing he saith is indeed false.

24:9 And a fifth (time) that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he speaketh truth.

The testimony of the husband is equivalent to the testimony of four, if he swears he is talking the truth. She can get away if she brings four witnesses before Allah.

Very nice and correct.

hokowo · 01-04-2007, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobinius

How about this suras?

24:6 As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;

24:7 And yet a fifth, invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is of those who lie.

24:8 And it shall avert the punishment from her if she bear witness before Allah four times that the thing he saith is indeed false.

24:9 And a fifth (time) that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he speaketh truth.

The testimony of the husband is equivalent to the testimony of four, if he swears he is talking the truth. She can get away if she brings four witnesses before Allah.

Very nice and correct.

from her if she bear witness before Allah four times

Bobinius · 01-05-2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hokowo

from her if she bear witness before Allah four times

Ok, what do you mean?

post tenebras lux · 01-05-2007, 04:53 AM

She has to say 'I swear by Allah that this claim is not true'/'Allah be my witness, this claim is not true', or somesuch, four times.

01-04-2007, 12:18 AM	#7
Bobinius Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Transylvania (a real place in Romania ) and France Posts: 2,914	How about this suras? 24:6 As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth; 24:7 And yet a fifth, invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is of those who lie. 24:8 And it shall avert the punishment from her if she bear witness before Allah four times that the thing he saith is indeed false. 24:9 And a fifth (time) that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he speaketh truth. The testimony of the husband is equivalent to the testimony of four, if he swears he is talking the truth. She can get away if she brings four witnesses before Allah. Very nice and correct.

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01-03-2007, 12:30 AM	#2
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Basically apologists say that the rape law (four witnesses) was originally made to protect women from baseless adultery allegations. I guess in those days adultery or claimed adultery was a bigger problem than rape. The whole notion of volition is not taken seriously in Islam. It doesn't matter whether the person wanted sex or not - it only matters whether they were legally married to the person they had sex with (or if a man, legally owned the woman as a slave). Allah is so all-powerful that individual will is insignificant and sought to be extinguished within the hive mind. But it is still bad because people being as jealous and sexually possessive as they are, will tend to see guilt sooner than not in matters of adultery, infidelity etc.

01-03-2007, 12:03 PM	#3
Roach Clips Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Winnipeg Manitoba Posts: 309	I still don't understand how a passage that refers to adultry applies to rape cases?

01-05-2007, 04:53 AM	#10
post tenebras lux Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Republic and Canton of Geneva Posts: 5,756	She has to say 'I swear by Allah that this claim is not true'/'Allah be my witness, this claim is not true', or somesuch, four times.

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