Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 04-08-2007, 04:58 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

If Zeus, upon investigation, is found to have carried out acts that are thought to be humanly possible, can his mythological status be reversed even though Zeus is said to have carried supernatural or superhuman acts at the same time?

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Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Which story about Zeus depicts him interacting with specific historical figures in a specific historical timeframe?

I think you did not read my post properly or there is some mis-understanding. I asked a question, too.

And in any event, mythological figures can do almost anything, that is normally left to the imagination.

aa5874 · 04-08-2007, 05:33 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

What really is the difference between the son of a ghost and the son of a sea goddess? Why is one inherently nythological, today, when both are from the unknown world?

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Originally Posted by Huon

It is a question of time and civilisation. Today, almost nobody believes in a sea god or sea goddess, and a strong minority, or even a clear majority, believes in a god, son of another aspect of god.

I think you may be correct. It is possible that time and civilisation will correct the beliefs of today, just as it did to the 'beliefs' of the past, now called mythology.

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Originally Posted by Huon

There are at least three sorts of HJers :
1 - these who believe in JC, and accept all the miracles and stories about JC,

These HJers, in generally, expect JC to reward them handsomely by forgiving their sins and sending them to heaven. They are in a conflict of interest situation, their information is heavily biased towards JC.

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Originally Posted by Huon

2 - these who believe in JC, and still consider that some stories about him are dubious,

Similar to HJer (1). Wants to be rewarded
definitely would like to go to the unknown place called heaven.

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Originally Posted by Huon

3 - these who do not believe in JC as a god, consider that almost what is said about him is mythology, and still can accept the idea that a man, Jehoshuah (?) by name, created a small jewish sect, and was indirectly at the origin of Christianity.

This group is the most interesting. I definitely would like to know where they got this idea from, that notwithstanding his mythology, he is most probably historical.

Toto · 04-08-2007, 05:44 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

...

This group is the most interesting. I definitely would like to know where they got this idea from, that notwithstanding his mythology, he is most probably historical.

Now we are getting to the real question.

For a popular treatment, try this pbs backgrounder:

From Jesus to Christ

Quote:

Shaye I.D. Cohen:
Samuel Ungerleider Professor of Judaic Studies and Professor of Religious Studies Brown University

...

If you're not a practicing, believing Christian...

And I'm not, I state for the record. Yes, a shocker. If you're not a pious believing Christian then why should we care about Jesus?

Yes.

Well, the story of Jesus, his life, teachings and death, are of interest to me on two counts. One, I'm a historian of Judaism in antiquity, and Jesus was probably the most famous Jew of antiquity and in many respects one of the most interesting Jews of antiquity. And consequently it's a fascinating historical puzzle to try to figure out and understand exactly what this man did and, almost as important, what he didn't do. That is to say to distinguish between the historical Jesus and the Jesus who will play an important role in the on-going developments of Christianity. But also for me as a Jew, Jesus is important. Jesus has played an important role in the world history in the creation of Christianity. Christianity, in turn, has had a major impact, either positive or negative, on Jews and on Judaism, and clearly a better understanding of Christianity is important also to me as a Jew. The historical information about Jesus, therefore, is precious to me as a way of understanding not just the historical puzzle about Jesus, but also to understand the nature of Judaism and of its varieties...

You suggested that there's really very little that we can know in a firm historical sense about the real Jesus, and yet Jesus looms so large on the landscape of faith and culture and history. So who is this? This person whom we know only by bits and pieces?

I suppose I'd be saying the obvious if I said that we're interested in Jesus because of Christianity. But for Christianity, Jesus would simply be a minor historical puzzle, no more complex or difficult, say, than trying to understand the nature of the Roman Emperor Tiberius, his contemporary, who also exists for us as a puzzle in the historical record. We also have conflicting evidence about his personality and politics, but for us that is just a historical puzzle, and only for historians to worry about. The rest of us don't concern ourselves about the personality, life and times of the Emperor Tiberius. So, but for Christianity, Jesus would be just a puzzle, a small historical puzzle of concern only to a small group of people. But obviously, Jesus is not just that. Because for Christians Jesus is a lot more than just a historical puzzle. And because of Christianity, because of its growth and its importance in the history of the world thereby retrospectively the historical puzzle of Jesus now emerges as a big puzzle. Not a small puzzle for historians, but a big puzzle for us all....

Doug Shaver · 04-08-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I definitely would like to know where they got this idea from, that notwithstanding his mythology, he is most probably historical.

I no longer believe he was probably historical, but I used to believe it, and I believed it for many years after becoming an atheist.

I got the idea from having read many books in which stories were told about real people and the stories were not entirely true, or even in some cases were entirely false.

Nor was it just books. In day-to-day life, I would hear stories about people I knew and later discover that those stories were not true. Or sometimes, I would know as soon as I heard the story that it was false.

Actually, that sort of thing happens quite commonly. The mere fact that a story about some person contains a falsehood does not at all imply that the person the story is about could not have been a real person. And, just because the falsehood happens to be about a miracle makes no difference. The only thing that means is that the person telling the story believes in miracles.

aa5874 · 04-08-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Now we are getting to the real question.
For a popular treatment, try this pbs backgrounder:
From Jesus to Christ

Quote:

Well the story of Jesus his life, teachings and death, are of interest to me on two counts. One I'm a historian of Judaism in antiquity, and Jesus was probably the most famous Jew of antiquity, and in many respects, one of the most interesting Jew of antiquity..........

Well, where do we find this Jesus, that was probably the most famous and interesting Jew.

I cannot find this Jesus, the Jew, in the writings of Josephus, Pliny the Elder or Philo. Irenaeus in Against Heresies paints a picture of confusion, there are many versions of the Christ, from phantom to human.

Where is this Jesus, the Jew, the non-miraculous Jesus, the one whose body is missing from the tomb. In what 1st century extra-biblical document or writing can I find any information about his teachings or even his followers in the 1st century?

I have nothing on Jesus in the 1st century.

Does any HJer have anything on Jesus in the 1st century that is credible?

Toto · 04-08-2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, where do we find this Jesus, that was probably the most famous and interesting Jew.

...

Would you agree that most people in the first century left no historical record? And that if Jesus existed, you would not expect to find much more than variable unconfirmed stories?

aa5874 · 04-08-2007, 07:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Actually, that sort of thing happens quite commonly. The mere fact that a story about some person contains a falsehood does not at all imply that the person the story is about could not have been a real person. And, just because the falsehood happens to be about a miracle makes no difference. The only thing that means is that the person telling the story believes in miracles.

Well, if I told you a miracle occured and I know that no miracle actually happened, do I believe in miracles? Do I want to deceive you? What am I really doing?

It is possible that I could have told you that the miracle happened, because it is you, not me, that believe in miracles?

If I told you 'Jo Clo' raised 'Lacamus' from the dead, which part of the story is true?

Toto · 04-08-2007, 07:13 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, if I told you a miracle occured and I know that no miracle actually happened, do I believe in miracles? Do I want to deceive you? What am I really doing?

You might be embellishing the truth to make a better story.

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If I told you 'Jo Clo' raised 'Lacamus' from the dead, which part of the story is true?

No part, especially since no one here believes in miracles. But so what?

aa5874 · 04-08-2007, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Would you agree that most people in the first century left no historical record? And that if Jesus existed, you would not expect to find much more than variable unconfirmed stories?

The article states that Jesus was probably the most famous and interesting Jew of antiquity, I need to know where he got the information to come to that conclusion.

And if there are no credible historical records from the 1st century of this Jesus, the Jew, what prompted those remarks?

It appears to me that some are of the view that whatever is plausible is true, but only in respect to Jesus.

Toto · 04-08-2007, 07:49 PM

Please answer this:

Quote:

Would you agree that most people in the first century left no historical record? And that if Jesus existed, you would not expect to find much more than variable unconfirmed stories?

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