Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doctor X · 10-30-2003, 04:33 PM

TriggerDan:

Welcome to the forum! Pick up a beanie at the sign-in table. . . .

If an unkind man, I could suggest tossing a rock at his head then informing him that it is merely his "interpretation" that his head hurts; however, you have to have some patience.

Yes, he is in denial.

However, he is at least discussing the issues with you. You cannot force him to open his mind any more than he can force you to close yours. If you value his friendship, have patience with him.

You may want to have some "ground rules." I have religious friends--I have a good friend whose wife is so Christian my palms bleed when I walk into the home. "They" do not preach to me and I do not start asking them when they plan to adhere to Exodus law and sacrifice their first born! They just do not bring up religious issues, and I do not either--okay, we will occassionally tease one another. . . .

So . . . you may consider letting him know that you are not interested in having his faith. You can then let him know that unless he brings up his faith, you will not try to challenge it.

--J.D.

conkermaniac · 10-31-2003, 12:34 AM

What do you say to Catholics who claim that the Bible isn't wrong because the people of the time recorded God's word to the best of their ability? We were debating whether or not the Bible supported a regional flood, and they argued that to the authors of the Bible, the Middle East was definition of the world. I said that if God were really inspiring the writers, they would write it in such a way so that the contents would still be applicable, even when science has improved. They said that the Bible was "divinely inspired", not "divinely monitored".

Secular Pinoy · 10-31-2003, 03:50 AM

Nah, if I tried to deconvert her, I'd be no better than the very proselytizing Christians which I disagree with. I just let her live her life. If she wants me to help her see the light of reason, I will.

Brian_iiiii · 10-31-2003, 09:24 AM

=============================================
I think that Catholics like to make their own and see a similarity between bastardizing the Holy Catholic Church through mixed marriages and bringing in converts. I mean, if mixed marriages are counterproductive towards he greater good of the Church what makes you think that converts will become an asset.
==============================================

Very good Amos. At least you're using complete English sentences and making clear statements.

>>>"I think that Catholics like to make their own ...."

We yes, so do most people who chose to have children.

>>>"....a similarity between bastardizing the Holy Catholic Church through mixed marriages and bringing in converts."

Where's the similarity? The Catholic Church might, I don't know, discourage mixed marriages because the bible says "do not be yoked with unbelievers." They recognize the best way to lose members is to have them marry a non-beliver. Their non-belief might rub off.

But bringing in converts is, by definition, associating with other believers. Every Christian church tries to get new members, that's in scripture too. To claim otherwise is to ignore the facts.

>>>"...what makes you think that converts will become an asset?"

Well, I think any institution is made stronger if it has 300 members actively contributing to it's success instead of 100 members. And considering the falling birthrates in the West, you're going to have falling membership if you just rely on cranking out babies to add to your congregation.

Doctor X · 10-31-2003, 06:57 PM

Secular Pinoy:

Quote:

Nah, if I tried to deconvert her, I'd be no better than the very proselytizing Christians which I disagree with.

Indeed, I do not want anyone disturbing me on a weekend trying to sell something be it a religion or atheism . . . unless it involves Temple Prostitutes . . . . Temple Prostitutes changes everything. . . .

--J.D.

Secular Pinoy · 11-01-2003, 04:25 AM

One word of advice, be very suspicious of temple prostitutes who accepts goats as payment for "services" rendered. Especially if they also ask for your signet and your cord, and your staff that is in your hand.

the_cave · 11-14-2003, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secular Pinoy
Catholics base their beliefs on what the Church hierarchy teaches. They don't bother reading the bible since they might make mistakes in interpretation, because only divinely inspired members of the clergy can understand what they mean. Listening to my catholic girlfriend's stories makes me cringe when she talks about some of the whacked-out things the nuns have taught her in catholic school. And she, like most catholics, never bothered to check up the veracity and accuracy of what they've been taught. The fact that those were taught by nice-looking "people of the cloth" is enough to summon credibility.

Aargh...I'm gonna devote my time to being a one-man Catholic Anti-Defamation League...ironic, since I think the Church is rightly criticized for some things...anyway, it is not the case that only "divinely inspired members of the clergy" are considered capable of understanding the Bible! Maybe the "whacked-out" nuns have been teaching some nonsense, but I doubt it...more likely it's a popular delusion your girlfriend has picked up from over-pious adults. Sure, Protestants probably read the Bible more often than Catholics. That doesn't mean Catholics don't read it, or that Bible study isn't promoted in the Catholic church, and so forth.

As for the OP, I think that what many people mean by the world "interpretation" is not really what the word means. I think what people often mean when they use the word are things like "metaphor" "representation" "subjective account" "myth" "story" and so forth. Which, very loosely speaking, are "interpretations", I suppose, in a kind of postmodern-hermeneutical way...so it's not really a cop-out in the way that it appears to be. People who claim that the Bible is an "interpretation" are just trying, in an inexact way, to express the fact that texts are imprecise, and subject to interpretation. I admit it does sound like this individual could stand to analyze texts a bit more critically.

runnerryan · 11-14-2003, 12:51 PM

Man this thread is all over the place. Good place for my first post here. I'm a Catholic seminarian so hopefully that gives my some authority to say that the Church doesn't tell people not to read the bible. With our understanding of the tradition of the Church we would say there is a lot of other stuff worth reading too, but as St Jerome said "Ignorance of the scriptures, is ignorance of Christ" so authentic Catholic teaching strongly encourages reading the bible. But, who knows what various confused people in the Church teach. You can find individual Catholics who will say just about anything.

As far as the flood story goes I think it is a true story about how God works, it reveals some of his nature to his, but I doubt it is historically true. It would be cool if they found Noah's Ark, but I doubt it exists. The story just tells God punishes sin, saves those who follow Him, and that he has promised to always be with humanity. A story can communicate spiritual truth without being an historical event.

CX · 11-14-2003, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by runnerryan
As far as the flood story goes I think it is a true story about how God works, it reveals some of his nature to his, but I doubt it is historically true. It would be cool if they found Noah's Ark, but I doubt it exists. The story just tells God punishes sin, saves those who follow Him, and that he has promised to always be with humanity. A story can communicate spiritual truth without being an historical event.

And that he's not opposed to genocide on a global scale.

Mathetes · 11-14-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by runnerryan
A story can communicate spiritual truth without being an historical event.

I recently started a thread on this topic. Maybe you could contribute?

What does "reading the Bible metaphorically" mean?

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10-30-2003, 04:33 PM	#21
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	TriggerDan: Welcome to the forum! Pick up a beanie at the sign-in table. . . . If an unkind man, I could suggest tossing a rock at his head then informing him that it is merely his "interpretation" that his head hurts; however, you have to have some patience. Yes, he is in denial. However, he is at least discussing the issues with you. You cannot force him to open his mind any more than he can force you to close yours. If you value his friendship, have patience with him. You may want to have some "ground rules." I have religious friends--I have a good friend whose wife is so Christian my palms bleed when I walk into the home. "They" do not preach to me and I do not start asking them when they plan to adhere to Exodus law and sacrifice their first born! They just do not bring up religious issues, and I do not either--okay, we will occassionally tease one another. . . . So . . . you may consider letting him know that you are not interested in having his faith. You can then let him know that unless he brings up his faith, you will not try to challenge it. --J.D.

10-31-2003, 12:34 AM	#22
conkermaniac Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: American in China Posts: 620	What do you say to Catholics who claim that the Bible isn't wrong because the people of the time recorded God's word to the best of their ability? We were debating whether or not the Bible supported a regional flood, and they argued that to the authors of the Bible, the Middle East was definition of the world. I said that if God were really inspiring the writers, they would write it in such a way so that the contents would still be applicable, even when science has improved. They said that the Bible was "divinely inspired", not "divinely monitored".

10-31-2003, 03:50 AM	#23
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	Nah, if I tried to deconvert her, I'd be no better than the very proselytizing Christians which I disagree with. I just let her live her life. If she wants me to help her see the light of reason, I will.

10-31-2003, 09:24 AM	#24
Brian_iiiii Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: U.S.A Posts: 63	============================================= I think that Catholics like to make their own and see a similarity between bastardizing the Holy Catholic Church through mixed marriages and bringing in converts. I mean, if mixed marriages are counterproductive towards he greater good of the Church what makes you think that converts will become an asset. ============================================== Very good Amos. At least you're using complete English sentences and making clear statements. >>>"I think that Catholics like to make their own ...." We yes, so do most people who chose to have children. >>>"....a similarity between bastardizing the Holy Catholic Church through mixed marriages and bringing in converts." Where's the similarity? The Catholic Church might, I don't know, discourage mixed marriages because the bible says "do not be yoked with unbelievers." They recognize the best way to lose members is to have them marry a non-beliver. Their non-belief might rub off. But bringing in converts is, by definition, associating with other believers. Every Christian church tries to get new members, that's in scripture too. To claim otherwise is to ignore the facts. >>>"...what makes you think that converts will become an asset?" Well, I think any institution is made stronger if it has 300 members actively contributing to it's success instead of 100 members. And considering the falling birthrates in the West, you're going to have falling membership if you just rely on cranking out babies to add to your congregation.

11-01-2003, 04:25 AM	#26
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	One word of advice, be very suspicious of temple prostitutes who accepts goats as payment for "services" rendered. Especially if they also ask for your signet and your cord, and your staff that is in your hand.

11-14-2003, 12:51 PM	#28
runnerryan Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Mundelein, IL Posts: 23	Man this thread is all over the place. Good place for my first post here. I'm a Catholic seminarian so hopefully that gives my some authority to say that the Church doesn't tell people not to read the bible. With our understanding of the tradition of the Church we would say there is a lot of other stuff worth reading too, but as St Jerome said "Ignorance of the scriptures, is ignorance of Christ" so authentic Catholic teaching strongly encourages reading the bible. But, who knows what various confused people in the Church teach. You can find individual Catholics who will say just about anything. As far as the flood story goes I think it is a true story about how God works, it reveals some of his nature to his, but I doubt it is historically true. It would be cool if they found Noah's Ark, but I doubt it exists. The story just tells God punishes sin, saves those who follow Him, and that he has promised to always be with humanity. A story can communicate spiritual truth without being an historical event.

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