Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 04-18-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Deal with the grammar. And with the context.

Ben.

Let's deal with the bigger picture, the issue before us is the historicity of Jesus.

Irenaeus, in Against Heresies, persented a Jesus who lived to be an old man, being over fifty years old, and this information comes from the disciple John, a follower of Jesus.

The Jesus of Matthew, Mark, Luke and Acts ascended into heaven and was witnessed by his supposed disciples.

The internal evidence contradicts itself, on one hand we have Jesus ascending into heaven and, on the other, Jesus is left on earth to be an old man.

These stories conjure an image of confusion and fiction.

JoeWallack · 04-18-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

I am convinced that (regardless of my own views on the matter) Irenaeus would never say that Jesus lived till the time of Trajan. He knew that Jesus died under Pontius Pilate, procurator under Tiberius.

JW:
Guess again Ben. But sure why would we expect Christianity to remember who exactly was the Roman Emperor when Jesus supposedly died.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

J-D · 04-18-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

The founders of xianity have nothing to do with Yeshua. Why would someone worship a criminal? A preacher?! Preaching rebellion and a murderer crucified together with two fellow terrorists.

If this is your opinion, I don't see that you've given any grounds for it.

J-D · 04-18-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In 'Against Heresies' book 1 ch28 section1, Irenaeus described the confusion and chaos surrounding the character called Jesus and Christ.

"Many offshoots of numerous heresies have already been formed from those heretics we have described. This arises from the fact that numbers of them--indeed we may say all--desire themselves to be teachers, and to break off from the particular heresy on which they have been involved.

Forming one set of doctrines out of a totally different system of opinions, and then again others from others, they insist upon teaching something new, declaring themselves the inventors of any sort of opinion which they have been able to call into existence".

It is ironic that, about 200 years later, the NT would be a victim of the confusion and chaos described by Irenaeus in the 2nd century.

I don't see how it's ironic.

Ben C Smith · 04-18-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

These stories conjure an image of confusion and fiction.

The confusion is all yours.

Ben.

J-D · 04-18-2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Let's deal with the bigger picture, the issue before us is the historicity of Jesus.

If you don't understand the grammatical point, why not just say so? It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Ben C Smith · 04-18-2007, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben

[Irenaeus] knew that Jesus died under Pontius Pilate, procurator under Tiberius.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Guess again Ben. But sure why would we expect Christianity to remember who exactly was the Roman Emperor when Jesus supposedly died.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1.27.2 (summarizing Marcion):

...in the times of Pontius Pilate the governor, who was the procurator of Tiberius Caesar....

Ibidem, 3.14.3:

...also the baptism of John, the number of the years of the Lord when he was baptized, and that this occurred in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar.

Ibidem, 2.32.4:

...in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate....

Ben.

J-D · 04-18-2007, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There are no miraculous events in the gospels of the NT, they are all fictitious events. These events were believed to be miraculous, but of course, they never occured as described.

A miracle is an event where a miracle actually occured, otherwise it is fiction.

This is about as reasonable (or as unreasonable) as saying: 'There are no crimes in the Sherlockian canon, they are all fictitious events.'

JoeWallack · 04-18-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben

[Irenaeus] knew that Jesus died under Pontius Pilate, procurator under Tiberius.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JW

Guess again Ben. But sure why would we expect Christianity to remember who exactly was the Roman Emperor when Jesus supposedly died.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1.27.2 (summarizing Marcion):

...in the times of Pontius Pilate the governor, who was the procurator of Tiberius Caesar....

Ibidem, 3.14.3:

...also the baptism of John, the number of the years of the Lord when he was baptized, and that this occurred in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar.

Ibidem, 2.32.4:

...in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate....

JW:
You don't know. I love it! Ben, is there anything above indicating Irenaeus believed that Jesus died under Tiberius?

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Ben C Smith · 04-18-2007, 06:42 PM

Joe, you are not reading carefully enough.

I did not say that Irenaeus thought Jesus died under Tiberius. I said that Irenaeus thought Jesus died under Pontius Pilate, procurator under Tiberius.

And do you know why I phrased it that way, Joe?

Because I just knew if I said that Irenaeus thought Jesus died under Tiberius somebody would come along to disconnect the dots. So I followed my source (Irenaeus) as carefully as I could.

If you wish to think that Irenaeus thought Jesus died under Caligula, or under Nero, or under Trajan for that matter, go right ahead. After all, I suppose he could have thought Pilate ruled for the better part of a century. Are you going to be the one to make that argument?

Ben.

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04-18-2007, 06:42 PM	#940
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Joe, you are not reading carefully enough. I did not say that Irenaeus thought Jesus died under Tiberius. I said that Irenaeus thought Jesus died under Pontius Pilate, procurator under Tiberius. And do you know why I phrased it that way, Joe? Because I just knew if I said that Irenaeus thought Jesus died under Tiberius somebody would come along to disconnect the dots. So I followed my source (Irenaeus) as carefully as I could. If you wish to think that Irenaeus thought Jesus died under Caligula, or under Nero, or under Trajan for that matter, go right ahead. After all, I suppose he could have thought Pilate ruled for the better part of a century. Are you going to be the one to make that argument? Ben.

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