Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sauron · 08-03-2007, 10:17 PM

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Thank God for Wyclif, Luther and others who reformed that mess.

Besides being ignorant of evolution, geology, biology, islam, judaism, and history in general -- you're also ignorant of the savagery of Protestant history. Maybe you should acquaint yourself with Oliver Cromwell.

But who am I kidding? That would require getting off your lazy ass and opening a book, wouldn't it?

Smullyan-esque · 08-03-2007, 11:18 PM

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Originally Posted by afdave

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But are you really so profoundly ignorant that you aren't aware that Muslims claim all of these things? They say that the Koran has more accurate and better verified prophecy than the Bible. That is has verified history and science. That their lives were changed for the better by reading it. They DEFINATELY build hospitals and orphanages. Why do you think all those Palistinians voted for Hamas? And they have definately been killed for their beliefs. Heard of the Crusades?

Can you please point me to some fulfilled prophecies in the Koran? I can point you to many in the Bible, but I plan to do this in a different thread and take them one at a time. Tell me about some hospitals and orphanages built in honor of Islam or out of gratitude to Allah or whatever. I would like to hear about them. Now mind you, I'm not talking about government funded projects. I'm talking about private orphanages and private hospitals built with private charitable funds donated out of hearts full of Christian gratitude. I'm aware of the Crusades. Black eye on Christendom. Thank God for Wyclif, Luther and others who reformed that mess. I'm not sure how Muslims getting massacred in a 'holy' war is same as somebody like Hus or Tyndale getting burned at the stake because they won't recant their beliefs. There are some very important differences.

Wow, afdave. Toto and rfmwinnie found what you were asking for awfully quick. It sure makes it look like you aren't trying! I guess that's what "profoundly ignorant" means.

So, now you're going to read the Koran, right? I'll hold you to that promise, and ask you about it every time you post.

Remember this question:

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Originally Posted by Smullyan-esque

Are you pretending ignorance, or are you just a small-town guy with small-town thoughts and no knowledge of the outside world?

It looks like the answer to the question is becoming obvious. But I'll let you salvage some of the tatters of your integrity by answering it yourself.

---------------------------------------

I can't wait to tell people about how afdave didn't know there were Islamic hospitals and orphanages. They'll get such a laugh!

jeffevnz · 08-04-2007, 12:56 AM

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Originally Posted by afdave

<snip> I have learned recently that people here don't like criticism unless it's them doing the criticizing. <snip>

Wrong. People here don't like criticism if you don't back it up. That's something you've been unable or unwilling to do, for the most part.

BWE · 08-04-2007, 02:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Condraz23

On a rather unrelated side note...

Most Christians have not read the Bible, but this is understandable. It's a very boring book and would take a long long time to read. After all, most atheists have never read Charles Darwin's "Origin of Species" either.

However, many have and even more biologists have.

Dave, why did you start a thread with the sole purpose of declaring your ignorance to to richness of the world? you are the blind man who thinks the elephant is a snake but you aren't the one holding its trunk.

Go figure out that reference.

Lucretius · 08-04-2007, 04:03 AM

Afdave READ the Book of Mormon it has several advantages for practising Christians it is written in a linguistic style that is a homage/rip off/parody (? )of the KJV Bible and has all the "history" you could ever hope to read (None of it actually true history of course )
It can get a bit boring with all the "And it came to pass" lines but nowhere near as much as the Bible with its "begats" can be
PLUS it shows just how a normal human being can come up with this sort of nonsensical quasi religious bunkum without the benefit of divine inspiration.
Seriously you will never look at the Bible OT in particular in the same light again

Edited to add a BIG advantage is that it's very very short compared to other religious holy books, in fact it's very handily paperback book size so it fits in your pocket (Just goes to show that God finally realised that a pocket sized book would sell in huge quantities and be much more convenient to carry around just a pity it seems to have taken him a few thousand years to realise this )

Dave Hawkins · 08-04-2007, 04:29 AM

Toto ... Here's what I read about early hospitals ...

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The adoption of Christianity as the state religion of the [Roman] empire drove an expansion of the provision of care. The First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. urged the Church to provide for the poor, sick, widows and strangers. It ordered the construction of a hospital in every cathedral town. Among the earliest were those built by the physician Saint Sampson in Constantinople and by Basil, bishop of Caesarea. The latter was attached to a monastery and provided lodgings for poor and travelers, as well as treating the sick and infirm. There was a separate section for lepers.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital

This predates the birth of Islam by hundreds of years.

As for Islamic prophecies, do you have one or two that you think are quite convincing? I do for the Bible. I read several that you linked and they did not seem convincing to me ... For example ....

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Surah 30 contains a remarkable historical prophecy which was fulfilled.

"The Romans have been defeated
"In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious
"Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice .
"In Allah's help to victory. He helpeth to victory whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Merciful." Quran (Pickthal translation), 30:2-5

The period of the revelation of this Surah is determined absolutely by the historical event that has been mentioned at the outset. It says: "The Romans have been vanquished in the neighboring land." In those days the Byzantine occupied territories adjacent to Arabia were Jordan, Syria and Palestine, and in these territories the Romans were completely overpowered by the Iranians in 615 A. D. Therefore, it can be said with absolute certainty that this Surah was sent down in the same year, and this was the year in which the migration to Habash took place.

So the 'prophecy' basically says that "Within 10 years, Allah's is the command etc." Not very specific.

As for charity work in general, are you telling me that people in Islamic countries are REQUIRED to give? That sounds like a tax. Something like Social Security. What I'm referring to in Christianity are private charities staffed and funded by volunteers who are donating voluntarily because they love God and love people.

************************************

I agree with Lucretius that the Book of Mormon seems like a rip-off from the KJV.

Lucretius · 08-04-2007, 04:33 AM

But do you also agree with this part Dave?

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PLUS it shows just how a normal human being can come up with this sort of nonsensical quasi religious bunkum without the benefit of divine inspiration.
Seriously you will never look at the Bible OT in particular in the same light again

Dave Hawkins · 08-04-2007, 04:35 AM

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Originally Posted by jeffevnz

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Originally Posted by afdave

<snip> I have learned recently that people here don't like criticism unless it's them doing the criticizing. <snip>

Wrong. People here don't like criticism if you don't back it up. That's something you've been unable or unwilling to do, for the most part.

You are wrong. I have always backed up my criticisms. But they still don't like it. They say I'm libeling people. So going forward, I prefer to just steer clear of criticizing anyone at all. Criticism is not necessary anyway to prove my points. I can let other people's words speak for me.

Meanwhile, have a look at the threads I am involved in and see how much criticism takes place against me and other creationists.

Dave Hawkins · 08-04-2007, 04:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Lucretius

But do you also agree with this part Dave?

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PLUS it shows just how a normal human being can come up with this sort of nonsensical quasi religious bunkum without the benefit of divine inspiration.
Seriously you will never look at the Bible OT in particular in the same light again

Of course. But it is a non-sequitur to say "Some 'religious' texts are non-sensical bunkum, therefore the Bible is also non-sensical bunkum." No real scholar would say that. A real scholar would evaluate the Bible on it's own merits (or lack thereof).

jeffevnz · 08-04-2007, 04:44 AM

afdave - I don't think Toto finds any of supposed confirmed prophecies in the Koran to be convincing. His point is that they're as convincing as the supposed ones in the Bible, ie, not at all.

WRT the hospitals - Bravo. You went and did some reading, and then came back with information from a source that is not totally dubious, and used it to refute a specific point that someone made. That's how you play the game around here. That's one of the things you have to do if you want to be taken seriously. The other one is not to make ridiculous claims in the first place.

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08-04-2007, 04:03 AM	#215
Lucretius Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: . Posts: 1,014	Afdave READ the Book of Mormon it has several advantages for practising Christians it is written in a linguistic style that is a homage/rip off/parody (? )of the KJV Bible and has all the "history" you could ever hope to read (None of it actually true history of course ) It can get a bit boring with all the "And it came to pass" lines but nowhere near as much as the Bible with its "begats" can be PLUS it shows just how a normal human being can come up with this sort of nonsensical quasi religious bunkum without the benefit of divine inspiration. Seriously you will never look at the Bible OT in particular in the same light again Edited to add a BIG advantage is that it's very very short compared to other religious holy books, in fact it's very handily paperback book size so it fits in your pocket (Just goes to show that God finally realised that a pocket sized book would sell in huge quantities and be much more convenient to carry around just a pity it seems to have taken him a few thousand years to realise this )

08-04-2007, 04:44 AM	#220
jeffevnz Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA, USA Posts: 3,370	afdave - I don't think Toto finds any of supposed confirmed prophecies in the Koran to be convincing. His point is that they're as convincing as the supposed ones in the Bible, ie, not at all. WRT the hospitals - Bravo. You went and did some reading, and then came back with information from a source that is not totally dubious, and used it to refute a specific point that someone made. That's how you play the game around here. That's one of the things you have to do if you want to be taken seriously. The other one is not to make ridiculous claims in the first place.

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