Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jayrok · 03-08-2013, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

You see, Moses wrote about the Gospel, and there isn't many who suspect that. KB

Hey Ken,

Where did Moses write about the Gospel?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Hi mountainman, Moses wrote about the Gospel in the Constitution or the Foundation of the Torah. The suffering, death, burial (and even a stone being rolled over the entrance to the tomb), and the third day resurrection was all written about in THE Ordinance of the Torah. KB

Can you be more specific?

Luke 24:45-46 -- Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day...

Where in the OT is this statement written?

stephan huller · 03-08-2013, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Where did Moses write about the Gospel?

Deuteronomy 32 (or at least the completion of the Law according to Samaritans). The "day of punishments and rewards" is taken from the Samaritan text of Deuteronomy 32:34,35 which reads: "Is it not stored and sealed up in my treasures, against the day of vengeance and reward?" At that time the deeds of men will be weighed on the scales and angels will prosecute and defend. The text (v. 39) continues, saying that God will cry out, "See now that it is I, even I?" The earth will split open, graves will open and the dead will rise. The righteous will be dressed in clean robes while the wicked are seen in tatters. Following judgment, the former will enter Eden while the wicked will be sent to the fire. (Marqeh, 189b-191a)

This line Deuteronomy 32:39 appears in a number of early Church Fathers - "See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand" - as a reference to Jesus's theophany.

spin · 03-08-2013, 08:07 AM

Do we have a credent walking bravely into the jaws of reason?

stephan huller · 03-08-2013, 08:20 AM

I am just saying that if the author of the gospel was influenced by Samaritanism he could have interpreted the appearance of Jesus the God as a fulfillment of the prophesy in Deuteronomy 32

Jayrok · 03-08-2013, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

This line Deuteronomy 32:39 appears in a number of early Church Fathers - "See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand" - as a reference to Jesus's theophany.

Are you saying that they viewed this verse as God saying this about himself? That is, "I put (myself) to death and I bring (myself) to life, I have (been) wounded and I will heal (myself)..."

It seems in context that God is saying he is the only God... He puts to death and brings to life. He controls the fate of all. He kills and he creates life. He wounds and he heals (he wounded the Israelites because they were unfaithful, but he also heals them because of his promise). This theme is littered throughout the OT.

I don't see the Jewish Messiah anywhere in Deu 32. :huh:

stephan huller · 03-08-2013, 09:42 AM

Well you've already identified why you can't make the connection between the 'Great Song' and the gospel:

1. the Samaritan tradition doesn't recognize the concept of THE messiah
2. the term doesn't appear in Deuteronomy 32.

Nevertheless the Great Song is clearly understood to point to the age to come when the Creation will be perfected. The entire Book Four of the Memar Marqe is devoted to this interpretation. You can find the MacDonald translation at most reputable libraries.

stephan huller · 03-08-2013, 09:44 AM

Online resource for the proper understanding (or the Samaritan understanding) of the eschatological significance of Deuteronomy 32:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nh6...ong%22&f=false

stephan huller · 03-08-2013, 09:51 AM

A section from MacDonald's translation of an early chapter of the Memar Book Four which relates to our topic:

Quote:

The TEN FOUNDATIONS that are revealed in Genesis stood there to magnify and also to perfect. Great is this prophet the like of whom has not arisen since Adam and never will arise! See how it is in Genesis and number the letters—six—like the six days, for each one resembles the other; and the name which brought all created things into being sealed the whole. Therefore He said, "God finished" (Gen. ii. 2). BERESIT was the starting-point and God finished (ibid. Targ.). Also the six days, Sabbath and holiness.

Therefore the great prophet Moses proclaimed at the beginning KI (for). Since these things came in the name (ibid.) KI became the medium of prophethood. BERESIT is a beginning; so KI is a beginning, and God is in the beginning and at the end, for it is with His name that he is vested and strengthened. Therefore he began by saying, For in the name (ibid.).

Note the greatness of his knowledge. What he did in the name is a mystery; it established the glory with which his Lord vested him. The Lord said it of the Form of Adam, for by it it was established; by God it was perfected.—Then the Lord God formed man (Gen. ii.7).

For I will proclaim in the name of the Lord (Deut. xxxii. 3) is a renewal of the mention in Genesis, and the name with which he was vested and the great name whose secret he taught. Moses was magnified mightily in knowledge, wholly of faith. The secret of Genesis — know how it is; the great name (YHWH) and the word KI were heard from the mouth of Moses.

The mouth of the Divine One and that of the prophetic one were alike. We have seen a word which the True One wrote— BARA. What is its meaning? He wrote In the beginning ... created (BARA) (Gen. i. 1 ) , and Moses at his beginning said, "For in the name" (Deut. xxxii. 3). BARA was said because the True One there planned and created by His will, and Moses said in his great knowledge, " will proclaim" (ibid.), just like the word BARA Genesis comprises the six days and all the commandments that were written in the law. Praise be to the Lord of the world who endures alone and never changes!

Ascribe greatness to our God (Deut. xxxii. 3; Targ.). The great prophet Moses made it the gateway to all praises. In it is contained Genesis, as well as what is like it. W represents the six days and everything created in them. H is the name by which all creatures arose.

B is the two worlds, the first world and the second world. W is the end.

He made known that the one is like the other, and he increased the speaking of wisdom. When he said GODEL (GREATNESS) he sought to strengthen the words by holiness. When Creation and Sabbath were gathered to him, he magnified its holiness with G and D and sealed with L. This is a city wholly great, at the entrance to which is written The Lord our God is one Lord (Deut. vi. 4; Targ.).

Happy are they who dwell in it! He makes them all to be possessed of the Favour.

The great prophet Moses dwelt in it and possessed glory. He sustained himself from it and was magnified in its good. No one has dwelt in it as he has and no one will (like him) be supplied from it.

O men, learn from him and walk after him, and hold fast to his command and do not forget his statutes. Woe to those who lack it and turn from its light! His teaching is then forgotten and they have withdrawn from it. They do not draw near to it; they destroy themselves and God is too righteous for them. They call Him. but He does not answer.

Greatness belongs to God, who forgives sins and rolls them away in His mercy, so that they may repent.[Mimar Marqe iv.2]

He said also, "The Rock thai begot you" (Deut. xxxii.18) . He began with the one and ended with the other. The first word is a compendium wholly of praises, like the garden which Abraham planted (Gen. xxi. 33). The rock that begot you takes away the son who errs and disobeys. Woe to the son who is like that! Isaac in his holiness cultivated the garden of righteousness. The fathers and all wise men of the city rejoice in it. An errant and disobedient son destroys gardens. Fathers and all the men of the city are vexed with him.

The Form of Adam is glorified over all. Its Lord empowered it above all forms. Of four elements it is composed. Therefore Moses used this word first. The first element is water, for it is an element needed by everything. The second is a handful of dust mixed with water with great skill. As these were made the elements for Creation, so they were made the elements for the body.

Therefore the great prophet Moses said, "Give ear, 0 heavens" (Deut. xxxii. 1 ; Targ.) and again he said, "And let the earth hear" (ibid.). Two other elements he began to call; they are stores —wind and fire.

It is good to endure to do as he did. good to enter into the service of his Lord. Fire is part and parcel of all created things, since at the Creation it was an element for everything. The whole was formed from four elements, each one increased in its genus during the creative process—water of four sorts, dust of four sorts, wind of four sorts and fire of four sorts.

See how the elements of water are divided into four types: go to the Garden and see what the divisions are—one made sweet3 8 and its changed state, and one made bitter and its later state. So fire is in this condition; in the Sanctuary it was made so, as on the candlestick.

Aaron produced it well from the fire on the altar, which is perpetual, never extinguished (Lev. vi. 9). So the fire which is for the Burning, of which it is said, "Fire from the Lord" (Lev. ix. 2 4 ; Targ.). Therefore no other kind of fire enters into the Sanctuary. When it is brought
into being it causes a great reflection (of light). The fire which the sons of Aaron made on the altar was put out when the great prophet Moses prayed to Him (Num. xi. 2).

Dust too is of four categories: the dust of the earth, the dust of the Garden, the dust from the sky, and the dust which is in the paved court of the Sanctuary.

Wind likewise is of four categories: the wind from before the Lord, the East wind, the West wind, and the wind that blows.

Let us magnify our Lord and be humble before His greatness and believe in Him and Moses His prophet, Who used the phrase The Rock and conjoined it with the word Perfect (in Deut. xxxii. 4). From the Form and the mind was the body perfected and set up (in a manner) quite apart from any other created thing. Therefore T (cf TAMIM) here becomes an element. T magnifies all perfection.

He put Y in the middle (of the MIM's); as for the two M.'s, the first M represents the elements of Creation and the Ten Words and the words of the covenant and of mercies. The second M is the number of the days of his fasting. Thus He inserted Y. between the two and magnified the proclamation of it with the word PO'OLO (HIS WORK) (Deut. xxxii. 4), which he made a seal for the words of praise.

At the beginning He mentioned Creation and also at the end He magnified man's FORM. He blessed the whole with the two words TAMIM PO'OLO (His work is perfect).

Greatness belongs to our Lord. He has made known in His wisdom that which He made manifest, for our Lord in His great power made everything a form, then created and fashioned and made creatures exceedingly grand. Everything was made by Him. Everything is from Him. Everything was drawn into being by His command "Come"; it was governed by His power, made strong by His good (favour) and magnified by His glory.

Exalted, good is he who draws near to Him and does not go far from Him, for He is near to all who seek Him and cares for all who love Him—a strong shield to those who believe in Him, for He is merciful and pitiful.

So He testified of Himself, "The Lord, a God merciful and gracious"(Ex. xxxiv.6).[Mimar Marqe iv.3]

I have always interpreted the early sections of Marqe as being entirely compatible with the Christian eschatological notion of the perfection of Creation. As Marqe notes here and elsewhere in the beginning God created or formed man (bara), in the end God would announce (qara) the doctrine of perfection or perhaps the means by which Adam could be made perfect.

The problem we have of course is that we have been trained to look at the gospel as simply a historical narrative. If there was originally a mystical subtext to the material - a 'secret' or mystic gospel if you will - whereby all the strange practices of the heretics were explained (i.e. ritual castration, dietary restrictions, constant prayer etc), we could see that the purpose of the narrative was to explain or justify the original pseudo-historical context by which these practices were originally established.

Remember the gospel was probably aimed at Gentiles (= individuals who for the most part hadn't been properly trained to understand the Torah i.e. didn't know enough Hebrew or Aramaic to understand the arguments that Marqe was making from the original Scriptural material). In short it was a picture book aimed at morons to explain why the elite thought of themselves as angels or living representatives of Jesus.

spin · 03-08-2013, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am just saying that...

Ahh, honorable Huller-san, me talk of o.p.-starting one.

Ken Brown · 03-08-2013, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Do we have a credent walking bravely into the jaws of reason?

But with a little fear and trembling.

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03-08-2013, 08:07 AM	#13
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Do we have a credent walking bravely into the jaws of reason?

03-08-2013, 08:20 AM	#14
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am just saying that if the author of the gospel was influenced by Samaritanism he could have interpreted the appearance of Jesus the God as a fulfillment of the prophesy in Deuteronomy 32

03-08-2013, 09:42 AM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Well you've already identified why you can't make the connection between the 'Great Song' and the gospel: 1. the Samaritan tradition doesn't recognize the concept of THE messiah 2. the term doesn't appear in Deuteronomy 32. Nevertheless the Great Song is clearly understood to point to the age to come when the Creation will be perfected. The entire Book Four of the Memar Marqe is devoted to this interpretation. You can find the MacDonald translation at most reputable libraries.

03-08-2013, 09:44 AM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Online resource for the proper understanding (or the Samaritan understanding) of the eschatological significance of Deuteronomy 32: http://books.google.com/books?id=nh6...ong%22&f=false

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