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Old 06-26-2001, 06:49 AM   #31
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tercel:
</font>
Replace the big boogie being with a videotape library, in this library there is a tape of your life, every single second of it. The tape exists outside of time but the contents of the tape ARE your life, you can do nothing different to what is on that tape.

Now do you still have free-will?

Amen-Moses

 
Old 06-26-2001, 08:10 AM   #32
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I think the definition of omniscient is being skewed.

1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

It's not that God should be all-knowing at any point within time, but should be all-knowing at every point within time simultaneously.
 
Old 06-26-2001, 11:00 AM   #33
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What if God taps me on the shoulder and tells me that I will do action a instead of ~A. Do I somehow lose my freewill? Can I still choose action ~A? What if I want to prove God wrong - can i then try and pick ~A? What would happen?

When God reveals some prophecy, does he not change the causal events?

 
Old 06-26-2001, 04:44 PM   #34
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pug846:
What if God taps me on the shoulder and tells me that I will do action a instead of ~A. Do I somehow lose my freewill? Can I still choose action ~A? What if I want to prove God wrong - can i then try and pick ~A? What would happen?

When God reveals some prophecy, does he not change the causal events?

</font>
If you believe in preexistance as Mormons do, then you must throw out everything you "think" you know about the Subject of "free will".
The concept of preexistance puts every
soul on earth in heaven with God before we are born to earthly parents.
This concept would naturally destroy any thought of free will, simply because human kind already knows God and what he expects.
The basic thought is that God has sent each one of us to earth to learn how to be
"Gods" in our own right. To learn the lessons
of "divinity".
When the lessons are learned, and God is satisfied that we in fact are ready, we return and are given worlds of our own to act as "Gods", in our own right.
The verse that says "In my Fathers house
are many mansions, I go therefore to prepare
a place for you", is a veiled reference to
the concept that there are many worlds like ours through out the universe.
When you have learned the lessons of this life, you progress to other worlds as
God's Iconic representatives, we become "Gods" ourselves.
When the Bible says we were made in the image of God, it is saying that we all have the capability to be as "God".
Now this is pretty far out doctrine
and definately not mainstream Christianity.

I dont think that based on Christian doctrine free will is possible, for the individual.
As someone else posted, most of the Christian doctrines would have us believe that God has already chosen the few that will be "SAVED" and the ones who will not.
If you are one of the 144,000 virgin males, you got nothing to worry about.
If not, well, what can I say?
It would seem that if God already knows who is returning to his side and who isnt, then the whole issue of free will has absolutely
no bearing or is a non-issue in Christianity.
It is well we remember that a large portion of Christian dogma revolves around the simplistic concept called "Gods Plan for the Salvation of Mankind".
A divine plan..........a predetermined
course of action for the human race.
What says that there has to be a personal
"free will"? Some theists say that it is a collective "free will".
If the plan is for the collective species known as mankind, then our individual lives and actions mean nothing anyway. And the entire human race has free will collectively, to accept or reject God.
I like the Mormon slant, I want to be God for a while. Can anyone imagine what life would be like with one of us heathens
running the whole show???
Wolf



 
Old 06-26-2001, 06:14 PM   #35
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Amen-Moses:
Replace the big boogie being with a videotape library, in this library there is a tape of your life, every single second of it. The tape exists outside of time but the contents of the tape ARE your life, you can do nothing different to what is on that tape.

Now do you still have free-will?

Amen-Moses

</font>
Yes, because the logical possibility remains that you can contradict the tape. You can not, but logically, you can. What is on the tape is contingent upon your choices.
 
Old 06-26-2001, 06:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pug846:
What if God taps me on the shoulder and tells me that I will do action a instead of ~A. Do I somehow lose my freewill? Can I still choose action ~A? What if I want to prove God wrong - can i then try and pick ~A? What would happen?

When God reveals some prophecy, does he not change the causal events?

</font>
I don't believe God does change the causal events. Rather, I am of the opinion that He illuminates the casual events. Certainly, when most prophecies are fulfilled, both the watchers at the time and the participants in the fulfilling were oblivious to their fulfillment. The nature of prophecy doesn't seem to be for the person it's about.
 
Old 06-26-2001, 06:30 PM   #37
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sighhswolf:
If you believe in preexistance as Mormons do, then you must throw out everything you "think" you know about the Subject of "free will".
The concept of preexistance puts every
soul on earth in heaven with God before we are born to earthly parents.
This concept would naturally destroy any thought of free will, simply because human kind already knows God and what he expects.
The basic thought is that God has sent each one of us to earth to learn how to be
"Gods" in our own right. To learn the lessons
of "divinity".
When the lessons are learned, and God is satisfied that we in fact are ready, we return and are given worlds of our own to act as "Gods", in our own right.
The verse that says "In my Fathers house
are many mansions, I go therefore to prepare
a place for you", is a veiled reference to
the concept that there are many worlds like ours through out the universe.
When you have learned the lessons of this life, you progress to other worlds as
God's Iconic representatives, we become "Gods" ourselves.
When the Bible says we were made in the image of God, it is saying that we all have the capability to be as "God".
Now this is pretty far out doctrine
and definately not mainstream Christianity.

I dont think that based on Christian doctrine free will is possible, for the individual.
As someone else posted, most of the Christian doctrines would have us believe that God has already chosen the few that will be "SAVED" and the ones who will not.
If you are one of the 144,000 virgin males, you got nothing to worry about.
If not, well, what can I say?
It would seem that if God already knows who is returning to his side and who isnt, then the whole issue of free will has absolutely
no bearing or is a non-issue in Christianity.
It is well we remember that a large portion of Christian dogma revolves around the simplistic concept called "Gods Plan for the Salvation of Mankind".
A divine plan..........a predetermined
course of action for the human race.
What says that there has to be a personal
"free will"? Some theists say that it is a collective "free will".
If the plan is for the collective species known as mankind, then our individual lives and actions mean nothing anyway. And the entire human race has free will collectively, to accept or reject God.
I like the Mormon slant, I want to be God for a while. Can anyone imagine what life would be like with one of us heathens
running the whole show???
Wolf



</font>
That's why traditional Christianity doesn't adhere to the pre-existent soul-as you've said, it essentially eliminates free-will. However, some early Christian thinkers did believe in pre-existence, including Boethius, I believe.

However, the fact that traditional Christianity does not believe in pre-existence should underline the importance of the doctrine of free-will to Christianity. GK Chesterton, a brilliant Christian writer from the early 1900's called a man's will the "dignity of his soul." It is a man's will that allows him to be king, even though it is in a small sphere. Without free-will, I think we are no men at all, merely pawns or robots. So it is paramount that humans have a free-will. AW Tozer, another Christian writer from the 1800's, likened God's overarching plan and man's free-will to an ocean liner crossing the ocean. It has a destination that it will certainly achieve, but the passengers on board are free to go about and make decisions. It is only an analogy, and perhaps a bad one, but I think it accurate. If our lives mean nothing, then why do we keep on living? Rather, the "collective free-will" is certainly made up of individuals. Yes, God will save whom He will save, but I have the choice to be instrumental in that or to miss out. It is dependant on my will.

Peace.
pfypher
 
Old 06-26-2001, 08:15 PM   #38
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Amen-Moses:
Replace the big boogie being with a videotape library, in this library there is a tape of your life, every single second of it. The tape exists outside of time but the contents of the tape ARE your life, you can do nothing different to what is on that tape.

Now do you still have free-will? </font>
Of course. You're looking at this the wrong way around. As Pfypher said: what is on the tape is contingent upon your choices. The contents of the tape are what they are because that is what you chose out of your free will. You could have chosen differently and then something else would be on the tape. Will you do what is on the tape? Yes of course - what is on the tape is whatever you chose to do so clearly you will do what is on the tape - out of your own free will.
However much you convolute the argument, free will remains a possibility.

-Tercel
 
Old 06-26-2001, 11:45 PM   #39
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tercel:
Quote:
Originally posted by Amen-Moses:
Replace the big boogie being with a videotape library, in this library there is a tape of your life, every single second of it. The tape exists outside of time but the contents of the tape ARE your life, you can do nothing different to what is on that tape.

Now do you still have free-will? </font>
Of course. You're looking at this the wrong way around. As Pfypher said: what is on the tape is contingent upon your choices. The contents of the tape are what they are because that is what you chose out of your free will. You could have chosen differently and then something else would be on the tape. Will you do what is on the tape? Yes of course - what is on the tape is whatever you chose to do so clearly you will do what is on the tape - out of your own free will.
However much you convolute the argument, free will remains a possibility.

-Tercel
I agree. another film analogy. SAy you make a canded film of someone as they go through the day. You show it latter. you know what they will do because you were there, but does that mean that you are contorling their actions? Does it mean that as you watch the film you are controling what the person on the screen is doing?
 
Old 06-27-2001, 08:38 AM   #40
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Metacrock:
I agree. another film analogy. SAy you make a canded film of someone as they go through the day. You show it latter. you know what they will do because you were there, but does that mean that you are contorling their actions? Does it mean that as you watch the film you are controling what the person on the screen is doing?</font>
Apples and oranges, in one case the film is already made, in the other you are making the film and watching it later. God is not watching it later, i.e after the fact, he already has a copy which he can look at before you are even born, from the moment of your birth onwards you cannot possibly deviate from the script without invalidating God's knowledge.

One attempt I have seen to explain away the logical contradiction is that God only knows all possible actions you will take until you take them, i.e he knows all your possible choices and their outcomes. But in this case God's knowledge is no better than mine, if I am playing chess for example I know all possible moves and outcomes in advance but I don't know who is going to win the game.

Amen-Moses

 
 

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