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Old 07-23-2001, 06:57 PM   #11
Pitshade
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Simply the fact that Jesus is shown to be descended from David, through Joseph, in one account, and the literal son of God in another. It's claimed that being the descendent of David qualifies him to be the Messiah, but obviously that's at odds with the 'virgin birth' claim.
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Old 07-23-2001, 09:31 PM   #12
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For anyone who has not seen side-by-side comparisons of the Lucan and Matthew genealogies, listing of the resurrection confusions, and the post-resurrection appearances of J, check out -
http://www.bobkwebsite.com/biblclcntrdctns.html

On the same site, J was said to have promised to some of those within his presence that he would return within their lifetime.

Contrast:
Quote:
Matt. 24:3, 4, 27, 29-31, 34, 35. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, “Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” And Jesus answered and said unto them, ...” As the lightning coming out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. ...

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other... Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 8:25, 30. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven... Verily I say unto you, THAT THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE DONE.

Luke 21:20-28, 32. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled, But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon the people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be sign in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth; for the powers of heaven shall be shaken, And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for you redemption draweth nigh....Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

John 5:28, 29. The hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matt. 16:27, 28. For the son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1. And see said unto them, “Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 9:27. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
with:
Quote:
Acts 1: 6-7. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him [Jesus], saying “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” And he [Jesus] said unto them, “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in his own power.
The promise of the coming of J was a promise not kept, as the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD attested.

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: Bob K ]
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Old 07-24-2001, 02:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Someone7:
<STRONG>What are the strongest biblical contradictions?

Basically, what are the ones that have the most oomph, are the most damaging to Christianity, and are nearly irrefutable (except of course, by idiotic ad hoc rationalizations).

For me, it has to be Jesus’ genealogy and the empty tomb to the Resurrection contradictions. The rationalization for Jesus’ genealogy is just laughable, and I haven't even seen one for the contradictions of Jesus’ death.

Any other good ones?</STRONG>
Well,
this is not a dead on Biblical contridiction
but it deserves attention just the same.

Lets see...humm.
Josephus
Philo-Judceceus
Seneca
Pliny Elder
Arrian
Petronius
Dion Pruseus
Paterculus
Suetonius
Juvenal
Martial
Persius
Plutarch
Pliny Younger
Tacitus
Justus of Tiberius
Apollonius
Quintilian
Lucanus
Epictetus
Hermogonessilius
Italicus
Status
Ptolemy
Appian
Phlegon
Phaeaedrus
Valerius Maximus
Lucian
Pausanias
Florus Lucius
Quintius Curtius
Aulus Gellius
Diocrysostom
Columella
Valerius Flaccus
Damis
Favorinus
Lysias
Pomponius Mela
Appion of Alexandria
Theon of Smyrna

An impressive list of writers within a century or two of the lifetime of Jesus.
It would seem that with all these writers and historians there would be more information about this person during or very shortly after his lifetime.

Theres the old "Bethulah" vs. "almah" or "ha-almah" controversy.

Jerome as much as admitted he knew the words were mistranslated but keep them just the same.

There's the controversy of the risen body.
Most say that the body becomes perfect again after the resurrection, but we have the reports of old Thomas sticking his finger in the wounds of Jesus to see if they were real.

It was almost like they didnt believe that Jesus had risen from the grave...funny, but I was under the impression that all the disciples knew that was going to happen before the crucifixion.

I wonder why the 3 "Q" documents (if they actually existed) failed to mention anything about the crucifixion death and resurrection?

It has been an interesting subject that the keeping of Noahide Commandments ( according to the Talmud) are the only way a gentile can receive a share of the "World to Come"
Gods kingdom on earth.
Yet the seven laws of Noah are no where to be found in the Christian Bible.
They are only found in the Talmud and the oral Rabbinic teachings.

The term "Moshiach" translated to "annointed one" but it does not in any way indicate or imply "Savior".

In the book of Matthew Jesus reportedly says
" do not resist him who is evil...Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".
Conversely, Jesus is also reported to have said " Do not think that I came to bring peace to the earth, I did not come to bring peace, but a sword". It seems I recollect this saying is in the very same book of Matthew,
I'm sure someone will correct me if I err here.

Want more?


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Old 07-27-2001, 11:03 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Someone7:
<STRONG>What are the strongest biblical contradictions?</STRONG>
What about the New Testament biggie (dogmatized by Constantine) that Jesus is both "fully man" AND "fully God"?

How does THAT work? 'Tis a grand mystery, I suppose.

Now close your mind, open your mouth and repeat after me: "I believe in one God, maker of heaven and earth...."
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Old 07-27-2001, 11:30 AM   #15
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here are some interesting discussions on biblical inerrnacy:
skepticbud makes some good points
skepticbud makes some other good points
red shows me what an utter moron he is
this is some really good stuff, and it's probably one of the few xian board that anyone who doesn't fit their mold won't be banned from immediately.
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Old 07-27-2001, 03:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by sighhswolf:
n impressive list of writers within a century or two of the lifetime of Jesus.
It would seem that with all these writers and historians there would be more information about this person during or very shortly after his lifetime.

Sighswolf:

That list has been posted here seven or eight time. If you do about ten minutes of exploring on the net, you'll soon find that some of these writers died before Jesus was allegedly born, while others wrote on agriculture or other topics in which no one could reasonable expect Jesus to be mentioned. In only five or six of those writers is it kind of strange not to find any mention of Jesus.

Also, Jesus is mentioned in Josephus, albeit controversially. In any case, mention would not prove he existed -- Tacitus has some pretty hilarious passages on the Jewish and Roman gods, hilarious, that is, if you take them seriously -- while silence does not prove he is a fraud. A case has to be built utilizing all the evidence.

As for serious biblical contradictions, the best to me is still Jesus' promise, confirmed by all his deluded followers, that he was returning during that time. Since he didn't return, we can only conclude that he is not the son of god.

Michael
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Old 07-28-2001, 08:17 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by turtonm:
<STRONG>


Sighswolf:

That list has been posted here seven or eight time. If you do about ten minutes of exploring on the net, you'll soon find that some of these writers died before Jesus was allegedly born, while others wrote on agriculture or other topics in which no one could reasonable expect Jesus to be mentioned. In only five or six of those writers is it kind of strange not to find any mention of Jesus.

Also, Jesus is mentioned in Josephus, albeit controversially. In any case, mention would not prove he existed -- Tacitus has some pretty hilarious passages on the Jewish and Roman gods, hilarious, that is, if you take them seriously -- while silence does not prove he is a fraud. A case has to be built utilizing all the evidence.

As for serious biblical contradictions, the best to me is still Jesus' promise, confirmed by all his deluded followers, that he was returning during that time. Since he didn't return, we can only conclude that he is not the son of god.

Michael</STRONG>
If you are refering to prophecy, Yes the promise that there were those of the disciples who would not die before his return
is often mentioned as a contridiction, especially by the Jews.

The largest contridiction to me with reguard to Jesus was the failure of this person, to fulfill ALL of the conditions that Hebrew law indicated would indentify the true "messiah".

Hebrew law said that the true messiah would be recognized by the advent of world peace through the efforts of this individual.

The Temple would be rebuilt (3rd).

The Jews from the world over would be brought back to the land of their fathers.

There would be opportunity for all the people of the earth to recongnize the God of the Hebrews as the one true God and they would all be recieved into the faith with open arms.

This Messiah would not be a divine personage,
but a man like you and I.
The only requirement for divinity was a direct line of geneology to the house of David.

This messiah will not display tricks and miracles such as raising the dead, and walking on water, and healing the sick.

And the last word is that the true Messiah,
would not die.........
The hebrew law clearly states that if one should come and fulfill part of the prophecies, but was killed for his actions,
that person could never be the Messiah the hebrews are waiting for.

They also state the the true "Messiah" would raise the Torah and the Talmud into the forefront of the world and revive the adherence to those ancient texts along with the reestablishment of the Rabbinic laws.

Not advocate disobedience, but promote the laws.

Jesus never did any of these things.
That is why he is not recognized in Jewish culture as the messiah.

The multitude of Christian verses in Biblical text, that they claim predicts the coming of Jesus as the messiah can be refuted by any Rabbi, very easily using the corrected translations and the actual context
of the verses as they relate to the Jewish people.


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Old 07-28-2001, 08:48 AM   #18
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The most fertile ground for finding biblical contradictions is anytime that two or more sources tell the same story. Thus the gospels provide scores of completely irreconciliable passages. For an example, look at Peter's 3 denials of Jesus. All 4 gospels make it a specific claim of exactly 3 denials. So far, so good. But when you examine the recipients of the denials you find that they disagree completely. The only way to reconcile is to add them together - you end up with at least 6 denials, and probably 9.

A veritable gold mine of contradictions can be found in comparing 1/2 Samuel and 1/2 Kings to 1/2 Chronicles. I have found about 200 direct contradictions and other major problems. Chronicles is maybe the world's first spin-doctoring of another text.

Another place to look is anytime a NT writer quotes from the OT. For example, Jesus on David's actions (Mk 2:25-26 and 1 Sam 21:1-6), Stephen's botched OT history (Acts 7:11-16 and Genesis 23,33) or Paul misquoting Psalms (Eph 4:8 and Ps 68:18).

Unfortunately, Xns have devised a list of interpretive rules by which any contradiction can be explained away. Therefore I think this line of reasoning alone will not de-convert a true believer. However, it is still useful in conjunction with other lines of reasoning.
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Old 07-29-2001, 04:30 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by ex-preacher:
<STRONG>The most fertile ground for finding biblical contradictions is anytime that two or more sources tell the same story. Thus the gospels provide scores of completely irreconciliable passages. For an example, look at Peter's 3 denials of Jesus. All 4 gospels make it a specific claim of exactly 3 denials. So far, so good. But when you examine the recipients of the denials you find that they disagree completely. The only way to reconcile is to add them together - you end up with at least 6 denials, and probably 9.

A veritable gold mine of contradictions can be found in comparing 1/2 Samuel and 1/2 Kings to 1/2 Chronicles. I have found about 200 direct contradictions and other major problems. Chronicles is maybe the world's first spin-doctoring of another text.

Another place to look is anytime a NT writer quotes from the OT. For example, Jesus on David's actions (Mk 2:25-26 and 1 Sam 21:1-6), Stephen's botched OT history (Acts 7:11-16 and Genesis 23,33) or Paul misquoting Psalms (Eph 4:8 and Ps 68:18).

Unfortunately, Xns have devised a list of interpretive rules by which any contradiction can be explained away. Therefore I think this line of reasoning alone will not de-convert a true believer. However, it is still useful in conjunction with other lines of reasoning.</STRONG>
Ex-Preacher,
You would not be suggesting that Christians
and Clergy use selective verses and throw out the unflattering stuff would you?
Please sir, we all know that good Christians
never misinterpret God's word.
Surely you aren't suggesting that good Christians would misquote the Holy Bible?
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Old 07-30-2001, 04:01 AM   #20
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1 Chronicles 21:1-2
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

2 Samuel 24:1-2
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.

Common apologetic defence: "God permitted Satan to do such".
Common sense: "It doesn't say 'God permitted Satan', it says 'The LORD' and 'Satan' both did the same thing."

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: jre ]
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