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Old 08-01-2001, 12:25 PM   #11
JohnV
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Quote:
turtonm: Please point to the specific passage in the quote where Jesus is mentioned.
What, one atheist puts words in the Christian's mouth, then the other atheists expect the Christian to defend those words? Gimme a break!
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Old 08-01-2001, 12:29 PM   #12
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It is of course telling that you won't find a single modern bible scholar who is *not* a Christian who says that Jesus is referred to in the Hebrew Bible. It is, suspiciously, only those who are fettered by confessional stance who say such things.
It's not suspicious at all. A person who concludes that Jesus was correctly prophesied about hundreds of years in advance is probably going to become a Christian, huh? If someone doesn't want to be a Christian, they're not going to admit to the fulfilled prophecies, are they?
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Old 08-01-2001, 12:31 PM   #13
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Originally posted by JohnV:
The question concerned the witnesses of Jesus' miracles, so I presented one passage showing that the witnesses, the people of Israel, continually fail to understand the things God shows them.

Of course, that cuts both ways -- who is missing god's point, the disciples or the witnesses?

[b]Also, I'm of above average intelligence and reading ability, and I think that the OT sometimes alludes to Jesus, so rodahi's blanket statement is false.[/QB]
Hmmm....well, reading ability is evidently a problem, since Rodahi used a conditional "can" in front of the verb "see." That implies that while all "can," there are some who willfully disregard what is obvious to scholars and layman alike: that Jesus is never mentioned in the OT. If he had been, all of the jews would now be Christians.

We'd be happy to discuss anything you think qualifies as a mention of Jesus in the OT.

Michael
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Old 08-01-2001, 12:39 PM   #14
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Yes, of course it is quite telling. Incidentally, the same defective hermeneutic applied by evangelicals can be turned against them. For example, Deuteronomy 18:20 warns that the false prophet who arrogates YHWH's authority yet speaks falsely will surely die. One could maintain that this too is prophetic of Jesus - of his aberrant ministry and tragic death. Plus there are some remarkable parallels in Isaiah 14 which can be turned against Jesus (i.e. he was "cast out of his grave like an abominable branch" referring to both the suspicious circumstances of Jesus' burial and to his cursed lineage from Coniah/Jehoiachin!).

Another absurdity is the reading of Jesus into Isaiah 53 as the famous servant of YHWH. What part of Isaiah 41:8 don't these people understand?

[ August 01, 2001: Message edited by: Apikorus ]
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Old 08-01-2001, 12:44 PM   #15
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Of course, that cuts both ways -- who is missing god's point, the disciples or the witnesses?
Seeing as it's repeatedly a remnant that is saved, I'd have to bet that the disciples got it right.
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Hmmm....well, reading ability is evidently a problem, since Rodahi used a conditional "can" in front of the verb "see." That implies that while all "can," there are some who willfully disregard what is obvious to scholars and layman alike: that Jesus is never mentioned in the OT. If he had been, all of the jews would now be Christians.
LOL If you wanna get picky, then right back at ya! Your point only shows that I am not a perfect reader. There's quite a bit of room between average and perfect, and some of it is called above average.
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Old 08-01-2001, 12:49 PM   #16
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The question concerned the witnesses of Jesus' miracles, so I presented one passage showing that the witnesses, the people of Israel, continually fail to understand the things God shows them. IMO If someone wants to try to pick this particular passage apart, go ahead, but I think we can find sufficient verses to show that this is a theme of the OT.
While your opinion may be interesting the idea that the Hebrew Scriptures witness to prophecies about Jesus has no support. It's not a matter of picking apart this passage; rather, it's simply a matter of not seeing in the passage (or its context) what you claim to see. Maybe everyone else is blind to the ways of God but you?
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Old 08-01-2001, 12:51 PM   #17
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Nice try at a change of subject, Apikorus. Incidentally, here's a whole new topic!
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Old 08-01-2001, 12:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by JohnV:
<STRONG>What, one atheist puts words in the Christian's mouth, then the other atheists expect the Christian to defend those words? Gimme a break!</STRONG>
JohnV
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Random Thiest Of The Week?

It's real simple. Somebody asked a question
about the believing of Jesus' miracles. You
quoted from the OT about people not understanding (standard cult mind control
tacktics, BTW). The implication is that you
think the passage refers to Jesus. Why else
would you quote it as evidence of why the
Jews did not believe?

If the OT repeatedly makes a point of how
Jewish people don't understand things, you'd
think that when God sent his "son" to them
them, he'd have made durn sure that they
wouldn't mis-understand. Otherwise, why not
send him to the Gentiles?

Clearly, God just doesn't love people with
above average inteligence?
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Old 08-01-2001, 12:53 PM   #19
JohnV
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We'd be happy to discuss anything you think qualifies as a mention of Jesus in the OT.
I'm sure you would. You apparently have stock answers ready for those issues, judging by the attempts to change the subject.
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Old 08-01-2001, 01:03 PM   #20
JohnV
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Quote:
kosh: Random Thiest Of The Week?
No real arguments, huh?
Quote:
The implication is that you
think the passage refers to Jesus. Why else
would you quote it as evidence of why the
Jews did not believe?
Because it refers to the Jews, and to their ability to believe.
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