FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Biblical Criticism - 2001
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 05:55 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-10-2001, 04:22 AM   #11
beachbum
Beloved Deceased
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cocoa Beach, FL
Posts: 864
Post

Amos

Could you please explain what you posted? I really didn't understand what you said or what you were trying to say.

Thanks

Stan
beachbum is offline  
Old 12-10-2001, 04:40 AM   #12
calvaryson
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 71
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by cerealkiller46:
<strong>From everything on Roman history that i have read, it was a custom to take all persons down from the cross on Sunday. Jesus had only been on the cross for a few days then, and therefore could have been mistaken for dead or dying. (as to the sponge of vinegar and myhrr, you wouldnt pass out from it or anything like that). Therefore Jesus could haven been taken for dead and easily have spread word that he was dead, and then making the miraculous return from the dead. The only problem is that his ressurection wasnt that impressive. The Jewish community didnt embalm their dead, or do any burial rights that would make certain that a person was dead. Also, Jesus came back with his wounds still on his body... god might have been more intelligent to heal Jesus' wounds- now that would have been miraculous. Therefore, it is my belief that Jesus Christ was a fake who attempted to perpetuate his stance as the son of god and the messiah that the Jews had been waiting for, except he was denied by the Jews because there were many discrepancies over his demeanor (not being a "ruler by the sword"). If that does not answer your question, e-mail me... i have much more on the subject</strong>
Then how do you explain the growth of Christianity. the numbers of people. People who knew Jesus, lived with him and talked to him after the Resurrection willing to go about and proclaim Him knowing they might be put to death themselves. Why would they do that?
calvaryson is offline  
Old 12-10-2001, 04:56 AM   #13
Amen-Moses
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Portsmouth, England
Posts: 4,652
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by calvaryson:
Then how do you explain the growth of Christianity. the numbers of people. People who knew Jesus, lived with him and talked to him after the Resurrection willing to go about and proclaim Him knowing they might be put to death themselves. Why would they do that?
Probably in the same way we would explain the growth of Islam, Scientology or Mormonism. It always amazes me when people come up with the "why would they do that?" defence which automatically assumes that we are supposed to explain the actions of rational people. These were not rational people, if they were then why were they following this daft bloke whose own family think is a nut and his townsfolk don't want anything to do with?

Amen-Moses
Amen-Moses is offline  
Old 12-10-2001, 06:53 AM   #14
Amos
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by emc2:
<strong>Amos:

You mentioned in my Noah's Ark debate that that also was a parable- Is that your answer for everything?

I'll play along, but let me further analyze this.

You are now saying that the story of Jesus is a parable. So that means that he didn't really die on the cross, which in turn means he didn't die for anyones sins. Doesn't this throw the entire Christianity foundation upside down?</strong>
Hello Beachbum and emc2

The entire bible is parable except where it is indicated to be otherwise such as in Jn.6:55 with the words "real food and real drink."

Your analogy fails to recognoize that a parable IS real and therefore Jesus did die on the cross for the sins of the world but only for the sins of his world and told us to do the same for the sins of our world when he told us to "follow [him]."

You should be carefull when adding weight of the Epistels to this because they were written for the herd mentality of the masses in effort to engender this event amogst them. In other words, it does not occur outside of a mythology.

No, it does not remove anything from the foundation of Christianity and in fact adds to it by removing the historic component to make it a living tradition. It does, however, not agree with the protestant notion that Jesus died for the sins of their world but that does not really matter.

A parable is a real life event that borrows conventional words to describe a non conventional (non-rational) event. The event is real or the entire parable/bible/mythology would not need to exist. Just like the Ark, the Cross symbol is used in many (?) mythologies because it is so descriptive of the real life event.

Perhaps it would help for me to add that the conscious TOK is or becomes the enemy of the subconscious TOL (Gen.3:15) and that after the crucifixion of the persona the TOK becomes subjugated to the TOL and it is in this manner that Paradise will be regained.

Amos
 
Old 12-10-2001, 03:53 PM   #15
E_muse
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: na
Posts: 329
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Amen-Moses:
<strong>

Probably in the same way we would explain the growth of Islam.......

Amen-Moses</strong>
Probably!? There's a statement of faith if ever I saw one.

Citing examples of other devotees who have died for their beliefs doesn't actually explain why the followers of Jesus were prepared to die for their faith in him - if in fact they did.

Quote:
These were not rational people, if they were then why were they following this daft bloke whose own family think is a nut and his townsfolk don't want anything to do with?
I don't know. You're the one saying these folk are not rational (a truth statement), so the burden of proof is now on you to justify that statement.

Incidentally, the information concerning Jesus' rejection by his family and townsfolk is in the Bible. I assume that you accept the Bible as reliable in recording these 'facts'?

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: E_muse ]</p>
E_muse is offline  
Old 12-10-2001, 08:31 PM   #16
emc2
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: nc
Posts: 40
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
<strong>

In other words, it does not occur outside of a mythology.

No, it does not remove anything from the foundation of Christianity and in fact adds to it...
</strong>
So let me get this strait- you saying that he didn't really die as described, but this is somehow still ok - as long as you believe that it is ok?

Quote:
<strong>
A parable is a real life event that borrows conventional words to describe a non conventional (non-rational) event. The event is real or the entire parable/bible/mythology would not need to exist. Just like the Ark, the Cross symbol is used in many (?) mythologies because it is so descriptive of the real life event.
</strong>
As I pointed out in the Noah's Ark discussion, a parable is not a real life event, but a fictitious story with a moral punchline.

Here again, you have provided a direct question with a sideline answer.
emc2 is offline  
Old 12-11-2001, 08:31 PM   #17
critical thinking made ez
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 536
Post

If suffering was the requirement for redemption, I would have thought a slow burning of the skin over the course of a few days would have been real suffering. I think JC took the easy way out. Vinegar on a rag...ooooohhhh, I don't know how he could bare the pain of it all?

I think it was just the death that was the redemptive factor the church pushes not the suffering or else he should have really suffered. Now if it was just the death that was required, then why did God make him suffer the amount he did by this form of death?

Back to the subject:
First there was no Jesus who died on a cross, there were many people who died on a cross, but a myth can't die unless the masses find the next "real" God.
critical thinking made ez is offline  
Old 12-12-2001, 08:05 AM   #18
Amos
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by emc2:
<strong>

As I pointed out in the Noah's Ark discussion, a parable is not a real life event, but a fictitious story with a moral punchline.

Here again, you have provided a direct question with a sideline answer.</strong>
He did not physically die but since Jesus was both human and God he died to his human-ity. If our humanity is only a condition of being "the being" does not have to die for the ego to be crucified. If it does have a moral component it is only there to make the immoral known.

The beauty of it all is that it can be a real life event that we as individuals hope to encounter at midlife. Meno pause is the only time that we, as ark builders, can become eternal and so the mythology is directed towards the enhancement and beatification of this real life event.

Amos
 
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:14 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.