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Old 04-17-2001, 04:43 PM   #21
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> 1. I cannot and will not give you specific cites for this. I know the material but not the cites, and in any case I'm not going to fall into your trap. You know they're there, find them yourself. </font>
Very convenient. Since when has it been a trap to ask you to support a controversial characterization of an important writing?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Paul says, somewhere, that he tried to take his crackpot message to the Jews but they rejected him. It's all there in your bible. I think we can well understand how crushed he would have felt, being rejected by his own people when he was trying to "help" them. </font>
Cute, but extremely misleading. Intentionally so? I don't know. You are specifically discussing Paul's post-conversion experiences. I was specifically asking about his pre-conversion motivation: What evidence do you have that Paul was rejected by Jews prior to his conversion?

So, again, what evidence do you have that Paul was rejected by Jews prior to his conversion?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> 2. Understandably, Paul does not say outright "I lied". But he tells us he lied when he tells us that he became all things to all men "..that I might save some". How about *you* go find the cite for us? You know it's there. "All things to all men" means "I lied, I said whatever I had to, it was a desperate situation, I tried to save whoever i could, by whatever means I could" </font>
I must begin by reminding you of what you explicitly claimed claimed: "Paul also tells us very directly that he was a liar who believed the ends justified the means."

Rather than provide us with information indicating that Paul "very directly" stated that he was a liar, the reference you almost provided does no such thing. Paul in no ways indicates that being all things to all people encompasses lying or that the ends justify the means. In fact, he explicitly disavows such a proposition and warns Christians that God will condemn those who attempt to do good by lying:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Someone might argue, 'If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. </font>
Romans 3:7-8.

See what happens when you do some reading?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> 3. Paul boasts about his zeal and his prowess with the bible, yes? He never even met Jesus face to face, and in addition, as you know, some scholars believe he may have killed Peter. We have his own words that he was a zealot. Look around the world, and you will see that zealots are willing to do whatever it takes, even undergo jail and torture, if they can get their message out. On balance, everything Paul tells us about himself leads a reasonable person to believe he was nothing more than a slimy opportunist who was power-hungry. </font>
No, I do not know of any "scholars" who believe that Paul killed Peter. They both died in Rome at the hands of the Romans. And when I look around the world, I see many so-called "zealots" who are not willing to do "whatever it takes" to get the job done. Gandhi was an avowed pacificist. Martin Luther King was committed to non-violence protest.

You have failed to support any of what you claimed.

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited April 17, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited April 17, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited April 17, 2001).]

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