But. As is obvious and as I have stated already. OF COURSE THE NUMBER OF ATHEISTS IS
DROPPING IN RUSSIA BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT HAS STOPPED PERSECUTING CHRISTIANS AND COERCIVELY INDOCTRINATING THEIR POPULATIONS. Since my point is that atheism has spread largely through coercive government indoctrination and persecution, it is unsurprising that once the atheists stopped indoctrinating and persecuting, that the numbers would fall off to some extent.

No, the number is returning to its historical levels because they NEVER WERE ATHEISTS. The Soviet figures are bullshit. In 1991 nobody was answering opinion polls truthfully -- the USSR might return. In authoritarian states people habitually lie to authorities of any kind, including pollsters. The Russia figures were lies. I doubt that more than 15% of the population was atheist even at the height of the Russian Communist oppression of theists.

If anything, Russia has moved back into the sphere of influence of the Russian Orthodox Church. Regardless, 27% of Russians (155 million) being atheists represents a vastly superior number of atheists (42 milion) than does a roughly equivalent % of atheists in the Netherlands (15 million population, 4 million atheists).

> Shrug. <

Now you are playing definitional games. While confucianism might be desribed by some as atheistic, it is not considered to be "atheism" by any of the statistics we have been using. Neither the World Almanac, or any of the multiple sources relied on by Adherents.com combine them. They are distinct.

I do not know what you mean. I suggest you pick any standard reference on the belief. Confucious did not believe in any gods and Confucians do not worship them. They do have religious rites, but they see those as necessary to the social order. I guess Adherents.com has no idea what it is talking about. And neither do you.

I've quoted support for fact that the coercive government indoctrination and persecution by atheists in China increased the number of atheists from your very own source: Adherents.com.

Sorry, but Adherents.com is not "my" source, and certainly not for any number other than atheists in Europe. And their figures are 1991 figures, way out of date because of the post-communist plummet. Also, you don't have numbers on China, and neither do they. Atheism was widespread in Chinese society prior to the Revolution.

And I'm not sure how the Protestant churches failure to win converts after reunification proves that the atheistic coercion and persecution in E.Germany was not responsible for the high number of atheists in that country to begin with.

It doesn't. But it does show that the problem is more complex than you think. The GDR is anomalous in two ways: first, it had an unusual number of atheists even for a communist state. And second, after the Fall, it remained that way. That calls for another kind of explanation, especially when you consider that the GDR was only Communist for less than 50 years, not 75 like the other states. I suspect Communist indoctrination was only a part of the mix. We have seen that it failed in China, Russia and E. Europe. Why was it so successful in the GDR? An interesting question.

Great, blame the victim. Those Chinese deserve to die because of their assumed, but undemonstrated, contact with Western missionaries? And you think you have the moral highground in this debate?

I can see you have been taking reading lessons from Nomad. Nowhere did I say that the Chinese Christians deserved to die; on the contrary, I have expressed pity and compassion for them on several occasions. But the fact is that the Christian Churches in the States are using those deaths to advance their own wealth, power and influence, in conjunction with anti-Chinese forces among US policymakers (this has been missionary policy in China for two hundred years; in the 19th century missionaries in many foreign lands hoped to provoke incidents that would lead to European intervention and greater scope for their operation). The fact is that both the Churches and the Communists have their own reasons for wanting Chinese Christians to suffer, and both are complicit in that. If you knowingly send a young woman alone to the house of crazed sex killer, you are complicit in whatever happens.

I can't help it if you are so naive that you actually think the Christian Churches are just innocent victims here. The situation is more complex, and persecution serves the needs of both sides. Haven't you ever wondered why the Communists persecute theists when they know full well it will only increase the number of theists?

And of course this is a rhetorical sideshow for you. It does nothing to destract from my point: most atheists were produced in and by governments that coercively indoctrrinated atheistic belief and persecuted religious belief.

No, Layman, you're wrong. Most atheists this century have been produced in religiously free societies, as we will see below.

So far, you haven't demonstrated your case with good numbers. Even if we accept Britannica's statement that there are 146,000,000 atheists in China, that would only be about 13% of the population. That's on par with Western European countries.

But let's look at a State Department 2000 Report on China:
http://www.state.gov/www/global/huma...irf_china.html
According to an official government white paper, there are over 200 million religious adherents, representing a great variety of beliefs and practices. Official figures from late 1997 indicate that there are at least 3,000 religious organizations, 300,000 clergy, and 74 religious schools and colleges. There are also more than 85,000 approved venues for religious activities. Most religious adherents profess Eastern faiths, but tens of millions adhere to Christianity. According to estimates, 75 percent of the population practices some form of traditional folk religion (worship of local gods, heroes, and ancestors). Approximately 8 percent of the population are Buddhist, approximately 1.4 percent are Muslim, an estimated 0.4 percent belong to the official Catholic Church, an estimated 0.4 to 0.8 percent belong to the unofficial Vatican-affiliated Catholic Church, an estimated 0.08 percent to 1.2 percent are registered Protestants, and perhaps 2.4 to 6.5 percent worship in house churches that are independent of government control. There are no available estimates of the number of Taoists. However, according to a 1997 government publication, there are over 10,000 Taoist monks and nuns and over 1,000 Taoist temples.

Sum the numbers, big guy. About 90% of the population appears to subscribe to some sort of theism. In other words, the Britannica numbers are a little too high. Further -- guess what -- that is probably close to the same number as existed prior to the Revolution, since the Confucian classes were always atheist, and there are naturally some atheists in any population.

In other words, there has been no significant growth in atheism in China since the Revolution -- the numbers do not lie. Adherents.com is wrong. And so are you.

So let's toss China. As we have seen, whatever the E. European numbers, they are much lower than the total of all atheists in non-coercive countries.

Getting back to Russia, here's what you said.
Since my point is that atheism has spread largely through coercive government indoctrination and persecution, it is unsurprising that once the atheists stopped indoctrinating and persecuting, that the numbers would fall off to some extent. If anything, Russia has moved back into the sphere of influence of the Russian Orthodox Church. Regardless, 27% of Russians (155 million) being atheists represents a vastly superior number of atheists (42 milion) than does a roughly equivalent % of atheists in the Netherlands (15 million population, 4 million atheists).

>Shrug.< Let's take your figures…….

And you are missing quite a few formerly communist or still communist states, like Slovenia (600,000), Slovakia (530,000), North Korea (claimed to be the "first completely atheistic nation" ever, 22 million), and Cuba (710,000).

I didn't miss them, I ignored them due to their low absolute numbers (as either thiests or atheists; I ignored Scandanavia too). No numbers coming out of N. Korea are reliable; using other Communist societies in E. Asia as a template, they are probably all theists there as well. I doubt N. Korean has had much success in eradicating theism, as with China, most Koreans are folk religionists and the they no doubt stick to these beliefs. Vietnam is a more complex case -- 80 million people, 14 million who don't adhere to any religion. But there are a number streamlined Buddhist sects.

This missionary site:
http://www.seamist.org/vietnam.htm
says that there are 26.5 million atheists, but that number seems high, but we have no way to know how they defined it. We also do not know the figure prior to the Revolution, and so cannot account for demographic trends.

We've tossed China, because, as we have seen, there are no "new" atheists there in the demographic sense. China remains faithful to historical trends, except for the anomalous growth of the Christian Church, which did not grow much in the old days (insufficiently persecuted -- that's why the Churches want persecution, it gives the Church a certain cachet as an anti-government institution and attracts adherents.) There are no "new" atheists in China. Government policy there has not produced large numbers of new atheists.

N. Korea we know nothing about. Vietnam is complex. The State Dept has no figures, out of 80 million, 14 million have no religious preference, whatever that means.

So you are left with about 50 or 60 million atheists in Russia and E. Europe as the legacy of Communism, even using the absurdly high numbers from adherents.com. That's much, much less than the total in Japan, N., Central and S. America (13% of Uruguay! -- or about 500,000 people), Western Europe….

You seem to think that "theism = religion." In many Japanese Buddhist sects, there are no gods. And thus, they are atheists. Many forms of Buddhism are atheist -- indeed, the Dalai Lama, who ought to know, says Buddhism is an atheist religion. Thus, a large percentage of the Japanese ARE atheist, and there are more atheists in Japan alone than in all of Warsaw Pact Europe. My own children are being raised Buddhist, since I don't have any problem with that religion's view of humankind or of gods.

Here is the state department report on Japan:
Participation in religious activities by the public is low, and accurately determining the proportions of adherents to specific religions is difficult. According to statistics published by the Agency for Cultural Affairs in 1998, 49.2 percent of citizens adhered to Buddhism, 44.7 percent to Shintoism, 5.3 percent to so-called "new" religions, and 0.8 percent to Christianity. However, a 1996 Jiji Press Service poll showed that 46.6 percent of the population identified themselves with no particular religious group, 44.3 percent choose Buddhism, 3.2 percent Shintoism, 3.1 percent "new" religions, and 1.0 percent Christianity. A 1994 poll indicated that less than 7 percent of the population regularly took part in formal religious services. Shintoism and Buddhism are not mutually exclusive religions; most members claim to observe both.

No matter which source you read, they all agree that the percentage of atheists in Japan is high, some giving estimates higher than 50%.

But let's be on the safe side and conjecture only about 25% of the population is atheist. That gives some 30 million atheists, or 2/3 of the inflated 1991 figures for Western Europe. In other words, in Japan and Western Europe alone there seem to be more atheists than were ever created in the Communist states.

BTW, the Dutch
http://www.scp.nl/boeken/studies/stu...menvatting.htm
actually have only about a 50% belief rate. How interesting. So add ~3 million atheists to the total.

Not that it matters. Atheists from the Americas, the Pacific, Africa, India, and Western Europe have Communist-induced atheists vastly outnumbered. And you, sir, have no case.

The vast majority of atheists produced this century were produced in free societies. G'day.

Michael

PS You can access the State department reports at:
http://www.state.gov/www/global/huma...rf_brazil.html

For whatever country you want, type in the name at the end -- _brazil.html, _Japan.html

Postscript on China

Here are the State Department numbers on Taiwan:

Approximately 50 percent of the population regularly participate in some form of organized religious practice. Sixteen religious organizations have registered with
the Ministry of the Interior. While reliable statistics are not available, it can be
estimated from registration figures provided to the Ministry of the Interior that of the total population approximately 22 percent are Buddhist; 22 percent are Taoist; 4 percent follow I Kuan Tao; 2 percent are Protestants; 1.5 percent are Roman Catholics; 1 percent follow Tien Li Chao (Heaven Reason Religion); 1 percent follow Tien Ti Chiao (Heaven Emperor Religion); 1 percent follow Tien Te Chiao (Heaven Virtue Religion); 0.7 percent follow Li-ism; 0.6 percent follow Hsuan Yuan Chiao (Yellow Emperor Religion); and .02 percent are Sunni Muslim. There are no statistics available for the three religions newly registered in 1999: Confucianism, Ta I Chao (Great Changes Religion), and Hai Tzu Chiao (Innocent Child Religion). It has also been estimated by knowledgeable observers that almost 14 percent of the population are atheists. Among the Protestants, the following denominations are represented among the population: Presbyterians, True Jesus, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), Baptists, Lutherans, Seventh-Day Adventists, Episcopalians, and Jehovah's Witnesses. There are also small numbers of adherents of Daism, the Baha'i Faith, Falun Gong, and the Mahikari religion. More than 70 percent of the indigenous population is Christian. The majority of religious adherents are either Buddhist or Taoist, but a large percentage consider themselves both Buddhist and Taoist.

My experience suggests that the number for atheism in Taiwan is low (and Taiwan's religious scene is SO COMPLEX!). But let's look at something. If there are, by Layman's inflated numbers, 146M atheists in China, that's about 13% of the population. Using State department figures, the actual number appears to be less than 10%. But 14% is a good conservative figure for Taiwan (and for Singapore, another Chinese society, as well).

Taking Taiwan as a proxy for China, this suggests that if the Chinese Communists had done nothing, there might now be MORE atheists in China! Far from being a "success" forced indoctrination has been an abject failure even in Layman's terms.

Like I said, the majority of the world's atheists in the last century have been created in free societies.


[This message has been edited by turtonm (edited July 06, 2001).]

I've given you the numbers and opinion of the Adherents.com website. 146,000,000 atheists as of the late 90s. According to Adherents.com, this was a dramatic rise in atheism from before the Cultural Revolution.

And I just got the latest numbers in the US!

From the 2001 Almanac, 1.7 million atheists in North America! I'm willing to be generous and admit that most of these are probably in the United States.

Perhaps you are counting agnostics? If so then you are wrong to do so. An agnostic is not an atheist and is counted separately.

Wow, turtonm! What a great bunch of posts!

On what basis do you arrive at your figure?

Or the World Almanc, or the Encyclopedai Brittanica. Do you have any polling agencies or references that count Confucians with atheists? Nope.

Yes they do. I quoted the number and you appparently ignored it: 146,000,000 atheists in China. And it was your source. You brought it up and touted it as showing I was wrong. Now that it shows I was right, you've gone net surfing for more sources.

Actually, it shows I was right. But you have no idea how complex I think the "problem" of atheism is.

It is an interesting question. But it does not remove the point: It got to be atheists after atheistic indoctrination and persecution.

Now you do sound like an atheistic communists propoganda machine. I know many of the missionaries in China. I have a chinese friend who will be moving there to work in a underground church soohn. And he is not going to be advancing his wealth, power, or influence by the move. And he doesn't have any corporate sponsorhip. IBM isn't using him as a subersive. You really don't have any idea what you are talking about.

Actually, it appears that most of the "established" denominations and churches in America are content to work with the Chinese governments' "registered" churches and to play by the atheists' rules. It is the nondemons and the independent churches for the most part that are supporting the missionary work. And as I've said, I've met members of the underground church and know missionaries, longterm and shortterm who have worked there. They have no corporate alliances with Coca Cola. You're just buying your fellow atheists' propoganda.

While I'm glad to see that you view the atheist communists in China as crazed killers the analogy is just another piece of inflammatory rhetoric. And you completely failed to respond to my point that the Underground Church is mostly a product of Chinese evangelism to other Chinese, not Western Missionaries holding big tent revivals. Besides, no one is forced to convert or unaware of the dangers. But when they hear the message of Christianity, they have the choice between the atheist party line and Christianity. It is their choice.

The Christians in China are innocent victims. Are we back to blaming the victim?

So you did see the 146 million figure. Why have you ignored it above?

I didn't say that the percentages were the same, I was talking raw numbers.

I've noticed this pattern with you. You grab a source and cling to it as if it is definitive until it becomes problematic for you. Since the state department report didn't mention atheism, you can't know what the numbers would have been.

And again you are confusing Conficianism with atheism. Our sources have treated them as distinct.

Why are you so sure Adherents.com is wrong? You used to have faith in their numbers. You introduced them to conversation. You relied on them. But, oops, once it became problematic you dropped it. Instead you've strung together some sources that don't discuss the numbers of atheists in China and done some pencil calculations and some unfounded WAGS and assumptions, and definitely state that I am wrong.

I'll stick with the World Almanac, the Encyclopedai Brittanica, and Adherents.com rather than on your unmentioned polls, references to state department reports that are not on target, and other WAGS.

Even if we tossed th 146 million number--and you have offered no atheistic specific numbers to counter it--and go with your 10% number, that gives us 123 million atheists in China in the present day. That's still enough to eat Western Europe's lunch.

Well, that's kind of you. Especially when you at first conceded that my main point was as true as saying the earth is round, though, I'm curious why you changed your mind? It certainly wasn't any indepth research.

I've given you numbers from Adherents.com for N. Korea and you just toss out all 22 million because despite the reference, you know better. Not that you've done any polling or research on the numbers. You just don't like them. N. Korea is probably the most oppressive communist regime left. They've completely indoctrinated their people and there are no real churches there. I don't concede this at all until you get some reasonable estimates or references.

Again, nothing but WAGS from you. It just "seems" to high.

We did not toss China. According to Adhernts.com analysis, China has seen a surge in Atheism since the Cultural Revolution. Even by your newly found lowball estimates there are 1.26 million atheists in China now. You've given NO numbers on prerevolution figures but conveniently substituted confusianism with atheism, despite the fact that all the polls and analysis from both our sources have distinguished the two. I've given solid references for my numbers, you've given WAGS because it doesn't "seem" right to you.

On the contrary. We know that it is perhaps the most totalitarian atheist regime on the planet that has styled itself as the most completely atheistic country in the world. We know there are no real churches there and that they government indoctrinates its people into atheism. Oh, but they don't count because it doesn't "seem" right to you. No, N. Korea at the very least adds millions of atheists into the indocrinated camp.

And 145 million in China. Or, using your numbers, 123 million. As I demonstrated above, your numbers in Japan are a fantasy. Not that you provided any sources or support for your numbers. Another WAG?

More definitional games. Buddhists may not be theists in the Western sense, but they are not atheists in the sense of any of the references, polls, or analysis we have been examining. They certainly are not atheists in the sense you are an atheist.

But of course none of the sources you've given actually said that 50% of Japan are atheists. It gave roughly similar numbers for Buddhists and Shintoism, not Atheism.

You are nothing but conjecture. You've given no sources about atheism, but have played definitional games with Buddhism and Shintoism, choosing to classify them as atheists when none of our references have done so and those religions are not atheism (although they may not be compatable with Western notions of theism).

You've just guessed that the number of atheists in China didn't rise. You've demanded numbers from me, I've given then, and then you've judged them as "seems to high" or simply ignored them for no apparent reason than they are difficult for you.

You've somehow arrived at the fantasy the 146 million atheists in China were not produced by a atheist oppression and indoctrination, despite my post clearly describing such actions and Adherents.com clear statement that the growth of atheism in China is do to that governments efforts to "erradicate religion."

You've demanded numbers, but invented your own while ignoring the numbers provided from reputable sources.

Truly a sad and pathetic display Michael. The atheists in China alone outnumber every other noncommunist nation put together.

This has been an even more atrocious display of desparate thrown together "scholarship" on your part since the Christ of Daoist Alchemy, which unforutnately doesn't seem to be in the SecWeb library.

Interesting discussion, even though it sorta morphed.

Layman, you're saying that atheism can be forced on people. Yep. So can religions.

IMO, neither of these statements are conclusive of anything except that a certain percentage of humans will use whatever levers are available to obtain and hold power. It's also my opinion that the number of adherants to a particular belief (or lack of belief) is not germaine to "truth". I have yet to see or hear a discussion of this nature that doesn't descend into neener-neenerism and sword rattling...fun, but not especially productive.

Let's see...maybe if the "Christianity Is Menacing and Evil" faction and the "Atheist Conspiracy" group could somehow demonstrate that (insert oppressive authority structure here) was ever anything more than manipulation toward power, it might be helpful in determining which side is more noble and altogether admirable.

In the meanwhile, I'm going to go out and force a little atheism on my neighbors as long as so many of them seem to have taken the rest of the week off. Me and the Mormons down the street are keeping score, doncha know...

Mac

• Originally posted by turtonm:
  No, the number is returning to its historical levels because they NEVER WERE ATHEISTS. The Soviet figures are bullshit. In 1991 nobody was answering opinion polls truthfully -- the USSR might return. In authoritarian states people habitually lie to authorities of any kind, including pollsters. The Russia figures were lies. I doubt that more than 15% of the population was atheist even at the height of the Russian Communist oppression of theists.

Layman: On what basis do you arrive at your figure?

Right now, after ten years of church work, there are about 17% or so atheists, according to the sites I referenced above, and that is after four generations of indoctrination. At the height of Stalin's crackdown, that was only the second generation, so lots of old theists must have been lying around still. Surely the figure must lie under 20%, around 15% somewhere.

Or the World Almanc, or the Encyclopedai Brittanica. Do you have any polling agencies or references that count Confucians with atheists? Nope.

Ah, if ignorance is bliss, truly you live in ecstasy. I suggest you crack open Needham's Science and Civ, Vol. 2, or read one of the standard texts, such as Fairbanks'. Confucianism is an atheistic belief system, it follows no gods. It may be counted as a religion in some places (for example, Taiwan recently added it to the list of registerable religions), but clearly the government of China itself considers Confucianism not a religion, because of the periodic Confucianist campaigns it conducts whenever it thinks the public order is threatened. Since the atheist government of China promotes Confucianism, I think we can safely say that it is compatible with atheism (and also theism).

BTW, if you are really happy to consider Confucianism a theistic religion, by all means do so. Since more or less every one in China is Confucian, you have just made everyone in China a theist!

146,000,000 atheists in China. And it was your source. You brought it up and touted it as showing I was wrong. Now that it shows I was right, you've gone net surfing for more sources.

First, I have used that number in several places, and shown why it was bogus. Second, of course I went surfing for more information. It is a fascinating topic, and one that deserves a thorough treatment. Getting more information is called "research" and I highly recommend it to you, Layman, especially when you are arguing with someone who has actually lived in and studied a Chinese society for more than a decade.

Second, the number doesn't show whether you are right or not. It is just a number, and has to be placed in context. Third, you yourself, by arguing that Confucianism is a theistic religion, have just turned all 146,000,000 of those atheists into theists, and totally undercut your own argument.

BTW, perhaps you can explain why the government of China has promoted Confucianism in the past, if it is a theistic religion.

Now you do sound like an atheistic communists propoganda machine. I know many of the missionaries in China. I have a chinese friend who will be moving there to work in a underground church soohn. And he is not going to be advancing his wealth, power, or influence by the move. And he doesn't have any corporate sponsorhip. IBM isn't using him as a subersive. You really don't have any idea what you are talking about.

No, Layman, you don't. And your ignorance is so vast that I have no idea how to begin to correct it. I have already said -- I guess this is yet another example of your inability to read plain English -- that the people on the bottom are sincere. It is the top that is cynically manipulating its followers. Persecution is desired by the Christian Churches as a useful political tool to (1) garner more followers (2) keep the Church united (3) drum up support in the US Congress (4) keep the funds flowing from the US. And other reasons…..

The Christians in China are innocent victims. Are we back to blaming the victim?

Once again, that nasty failure-to-read problem crops up. As I already said several times, I have nothing but pity for the poor fools in China ground between the authoritarian Church and the authoritarian Party. But I have nothing but contempt for the leaders of both those institutions.

You've somehow arrived at the fantasy the 146 million atheists in China were not produced by a atheist oppression and indoctrination, despite my post clearly describing such actions and Adherents.com clear statement that the growth of atheism in China is do to that governments efforts to "erradicate religion."

That is a claim made by Adherents.com. However, they have no numbers to back it up, which is why it smelled suspicious. After a little examination, it began to reek.

You've demanded numbers, but invented your own while ignoring the numbers provided from reputable sources.

Reputable sources? Don't make me laugh. The State Department is not a reputable source? Perhaps you can show that their numbers -- year 2000 figures -- are worse than Adherents.com 1991 figures? Is it your claim that I invented the State Department figures? Do you have any numbers at all? In your last post you failed to give even A SINGLE NUMBER to refute the State Department's 2000 figures.

You're starting to sound desperate, big guy. Slowly but surely I have annihilated your figures. Note that in my analysis of China I used YOUR numbers. 146 million atheists, less than 13% of the population, and less than the surrounding secular Chinese states.

Truly a sad and pathetic display Michael. The atheists in China alone outnumber every other noncommunist nation put together.

Truly it is said that those who cannot do math will live in ignorance.

In order to show that Communist oppression produced those 146 million atheists, you have to show 3 things:

• that this figure --which we know from the State Department site is inflated -- is higher than the percentage of atheists who lived in China prior to the Revolution; and,
• that this figure is higher than what otherwise might have happened had the Chinese never been Communist.
• that those atheists were forcibly produced by Chinese policy, and not by increasing education and wealth and other things due to modernization.

Remember, your argument was FORCIBLE INDOCTRINATION produced those atheists, not that atheists happen to be living in Communist countries. Originally I was inclined to buy this argument, but after I reviewed the numbers I began to realize how naïve your position was.

I have subsequently provided several arguments and found better numbers at the State Department site.

• that 146 million, which is under 13% of the current population, reflects the historical level of atheism in Confucian Chinese society and thus, is a mere extension of ancient demographic trends that have little to do with transient government policies;
• that, at 13%, the level of atheism in China is LOWER than that of neighboring Chinese states such as Taiwan, which means that if the Chinese had done nothing, they would have produced MORE atheists and thus their policies are not only a failure, they are actually have the opposite of the (apparently) intended effect(!) This is also shown by the growth of Christianity, a genuinely new phenomenon historically due entirely to government persecution of Christians (which, as I said, is why the Church in China solicits persecution). Several other beliefs are undergoing revivals, including Chan Buddhism, Qigong, and Confucianism.

Your only argument was to repeat a 10 year old figure from a website now understood to have deep flaws, without any context for the number -- do you have any proof that large numbers of these 146 million atheists were produced in accordance with government policy? By the numbers of the GOVERNMENT OF CHINA less than 10% of the population is atheist. That is a LOWER figure than neighboring Taiwan or Singapore (apparently, I haven't seen enough solid numbers on Singapore).

You have FAILED on EVERY count. Now I wanna see some numbers or an argument based on the State Department numbers, which are solid numbers. Put up the numbers on atheists in China during the pre-revolutionary period, prove that the current figures are higher than that percentage, link that change to government policies, and show how the figures for neighboring Chinese secular states, which have higher rates of atheism and lower rates of religious participation, are bogus. Additionally, you should also be able to explain why the percentage of atheists is LOWER than that of the secular Chinese states. For example, according to the figures of CHINA'S OWN GOVERNMENT, 75% of the populace actively practices traditional folk religions. Compare this to Hong Kong, where only 43% of the population practices ANY religion (State Department report on HK).

To understand the depth of China's failure to inculcate atheism, one need look no further than Hong Kong, composed of exactly the same people. According to this report from PBS, the vast majority of Hkers subscribe to NO RELIGION AT ALL. That's "vast majority" of Chinese in Hong Kong, versus less than 10% of Chinese in the State Department's most recent 2000 figures. Every free Chinese society around China has proportionally MORE ATHEISTS than China itself. Clearly "forced indoctrination" in atheism CREATED THEISTS.

Far from condeming it, you should be celebrating Chinese government policies. At 90% theist by the State Department figures, China is nearly as theistic as the US, widely recognized as one of the most theistic of the industrialized societies.

Having tossed China by conclusively demonstrating that the Chinese government's policy has produced FEWER atheists than it otherwise would have, you are back with the 16-18 million atheists of the GDR, and the 40 or so million in Russia, plus a couple of million in the E. European holdings, the total of which is less than the number of atheists in Japan.

One more thing. You need to also demonstrate the three points I made for China for all the Warsaw Pact states as well. Otherwise, we can simply ascribe them to demographic trends associated with modernity that we have seen all over the world, and consider this topic no further.

As I said, in this century, the majority of atheists have been produced by free societies.

Michael



[This message has been edited by turtonm (edited July 06, 2001).]

I'm chinese, if confucianism is theistic, can any of the great learned ones tell me which god am I praying to ?

Layman - I believe its your call ?

BTW Not all buddhism, Taoism are theistic. Pls kindly find out all the correct facts before stating them as correct facts. Especially refrain from saying what a chinese is or isn't when a chinese is present (unless you are one).

Tan xian1sheng1,

Ni2 you3mei3you3 Singapore de zong1jiao4 tung3ji4 ma?

Michael

Quick question that has been bugging me over the course of this thread:

How would one go about indoctrinating a negative?

I mean I can understand Xian indoctrination having been a victim of it, and I can project that to similar belief systems but I can't see how it is even possible to indctrinate a non-belief, surely to do this you would have to actually tell people what not to believe which would have the totally opposite effect. By introducing people to beliefs you face the danger that they will actually have an affinity to those beliefs and want to learn more so the only "atheist indoctrination" that could possibly work would be to not introduce people to those beliefs, i.e to do nothing.

Isn't this exactly the state position of most secular western nations? i.e isn't forced religious education a private issue.

Is Layman really trying to put down communist regimes for doing exactly the same as western secular ones?

Amen-Moses

I discussed the effects of State religious persection on the new cults in China in this thread here:

http://www.infidels.org/electronic/f...ML/000064.html

Mostly it has been a stimulus for growth there. In other places, with other cultural traits, it may be different.

Also, of course, Russian persecution of the Church waxed and waned even under Stalin. During WWII they Church was dusted off and received limited official approval in exchange for its support of the war effort. So circumstances often compelled the Soviets to mitigate their efforts.

From any angle, the former GDR is a fascinating case. Why did it get so atheistic? Even if we use the inflated figures from Adherents.com, after four generations of aheistic indoctrination, only 27% of Russians were willing to say they were atheists, less than 10% of Chinese are atheists according to Chinese government figures, yet 70-90% of East Germans seem to be. Further, declines in atheism quickly showed up in all post-Communist states, showing that they never really were atheist in the first place, but not in the GDR! Why? I love to hear how that came about.

Michael