[QUOTE]Originally posted by tallskinnyguy:
Do you realize the impossiblity of Jesus fulfilling all the prophecies at random?

Why yes. It is impossible for anyone to fulfill these prophecies at random. But that is a non-problem because:

1) Jesus does not fulfill the prophecies;

2) claims of fulfillment are reality-construction on the part of Christians; and,

3) the alleged prophecies refer to political events in their writer's own times.

Many of the prophecies are very clear and specific and are out of the control of some man to try and fit his life to. Your argument of 'many Jews interpret...' doesn't convince me of anything.

You claim they are clear and specific (we'll see in the examples below. If they are "clear and specific" how is it that everyone interprets them differently? If the prophecy said "An actor from California will be elected President after a peanut farmer from Georgia" that would be clear and specific. Unfortunately nothing in the Bible meets that level of specificity.


Mike: Obviously Jesus would not fit this. He did not bear any iniquities, but was killed for political crimes.

TSG: Jesus was tried unjustly and was brought forth by the Pharisees over religious issues. He was killed because the crowd wanted him killed and Pilate allowed it.

Yes, and? Even assuming this fanciful tale is true, did he "bear any iniquities?" No. The prophecies states that this person will bear the iniquities of the nation. Jesus does not.

Mike: There is no record of the inhabitants of jerusalem mourning Jesus death, indeed, they did not even notice it.

TSG: What is your source for this?

The lack of record, TSG. Do you know of any record that records mass wailing in Jerusalem at the death of Jesus? By all means, please submit it.

Mike Was or Is there justice among the nations? Nope.

TSG: This is clarified in the understanding of Christ's ministry of reconciliation to be completed at the second coming of Christ.

Wrong again. The prophecy clearly says that the messiah will bring justice among nations in his lifetime. Since Jesus did not and has not done that, he cannot be the messiah.

Here it is from the KJV:

• Isaiah
• 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
• 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

Note that different translations say different things here, the NIV says

• 42:1Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations.

Which of these non-fulfillments is the correct one -- "justice to the nations," or "judgement to the gentiles." And which meaning of the word "justice" should I accept as the correct one?

BTW, in 42:2 it says the chosen one will not cry out or shout. But we know from NT testimony that Jesus did those things....

Mike: "Kings will see You and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen You" (Isa. 49:5-7).

TSG: Note my previous argument to your 'failed prophecies' earlier in the post.

Yes, I saw it. It failed to deal with this simple prophecy, which is very clear: where are the kings and princes who bowed down to Jesus? Offhand, the only king he ever met was Herod, who laughed at him.

How, let's look at the additional prophecies you posted:

Psalm 22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

There are no dogs mentioned in the NT and the Roman soldiers are not evil, but just career army men doing their job. BTW, you are aware that most hebrew manuscripts do not have "pierced my hands and feet," but rather say "like a lion?" The NIV, which you appear to be quoting, often has good notes on manuscript disagreements.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Once again, Jesus was not crushed for jewish iniquities. His punishment did not bring the jews (or anybody else) peace, and his wounds did not heal anybody. If you want to claim that the Jews killed Jesus for religious violations, as you did above, then he was not punished for anybody's iniquities but his own. By your own words, he could not have been punished for anyone's iniquities.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Once again, there is no record of Jesus being generally mourned. You'd think it would have been mentioned by somebody. "They have pierced me" would apply to anyone who was killed with a pointed instrument, from a nail to a sword to a spear to a ballpoint pen. It is still too vague. Note that there is no prophecy of crucifixion.

So far you have not come up with any unambiguous reference to Jesus in the OT. There is not a single one.

Just for fun, let's post some more prophecies of the messiah unfulfilled in Jesus.

Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Jesus was buried alone, not with any wicked. Jesus did plenty of violence, in the scouring of the Temple and the blasting of the fig tree.

Of course, failure is the norm for Isaiah, who prophesied that Damascus would be destroyed and the Nile would dry up, neither of which has happened.

My favorite one so far:

32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.

Imagine, somewhere, a king shall be righteous and a prince shall judge. A brilliant prophecy, that.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Ooops! Jesus never ruled Israel, and Bethlehem is a person, not a place.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Believe it or not, some wackos think that this is a prophecy of Jesus coming in the flesh.

Zechariah is the funniest prophecy of all:

11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of
silver.
11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

There is no reference at all to the messiah in here. The gospelers simply borrowed this figure and wrongly attributed it to "Jeremy."

9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
9:10
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Above is the famous passage from Zechariah. Unfortunately, Jesus did not rule from sea to sea, and did not speak peace unto the heathen -- Christians have killed innumerable heathens.

Well, it's been fun, but really, the OT prophecies are nowhere fulfilled in Jesus.
Michael

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by turtonm:

Quote:

Originally posted by tallskinnyguy: Do you realize the impossiblity of Jesus fulfilling all the prophecies at random? Why yes. It is impossible for anyone to fulfill these prophecies at random. But that is a non-problem because: 1) Jesus does not fulfill the prophecies; 2) claims of fulfillment are reality-construction on the part of Christians; and, 3) the alleged prophecies refer to political events in their writer's own times. Many of the prophecies are very clear and specific and are out of the control of some man to try and fit his life to. Your argument of 'many Jews interpret...' doesn't convince me of anything. You claim they are clear and specific (we'll see in the examples below. If they are "clear and specific" how is it that everyone interprets them differently? If the prophecy said "An actor from California will be elected President after a peanut farmer from Georgia" that would be clear and specific. Unfortunately nothing in the Bible meets that level of specificity. Mike: Obviously Jesus would not fit this. He did not bear any iniquities, but was killed for political crimes. TSG: Jesus was tried unjustly and was brought forth by the Pharisees over religious issues. He was killed because the crowd wanted him killed and Pilate allowed it. Yes, and? Even assuming this fanciful tale is true, did he "bear any iniquities?" No. The prophecies states that this person will bear the iniquities of the nation. Jesus does not. Mike: There is no record of the inhabitants of jerusalem mourning Jesus death, indeed, they did not even notice it. TSG: What is your source for this? The lack of record, TSG. Do you know of any record that records mass wailing in Jerusalem at the death of Jesus? By all means, please submit it. Mike Was or Is there justice among the nations? Nope. TSG: This is clarified in the understanding of Christ's ministry of reconciliation to be completed at the second coming of Christ. Wrong again. The prophecy clearly says that the messiah will bring justice among nations in his lifetime. Since Jesus did not and has not done that, he cannot be the messiah. Here it is from the KJV: Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. Note that different translations say different things here, the NIV says 42:1Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. Which of these non-fulfillments is the correct one -- "justice to the nations," or "judgement to the gentiles." And which meaning of the word "justice" should I accept as the correct one? BTW, in 42:2 it says the chosen one will not cry out or shout. But we know from NT testimony that Jesus did those things.... Mike: "Kings will see You and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen You" (Isa. 49:5-7). TSG: Note my previous argument to your 'failed prophecies' earlier in the post. Yes, I saw it. It failed to deal with this simple prophecy, which is very clear: where are the kings and princes who bowed down to Jesus? Offhand, the only king he ever met was Herod, who laughed at him. How, let's look at the additional prophecies you posted: Psalm 22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. There are no dogs mentioned in the NT and the Roman soldiers are not evil, but just career army men doing their job. BTW, you are aware that most hebrew manuscripts do not have "pierced my hands and feet," but rather say "like a lion?" The NIV, which you appear to be quoting, often has good notes on manuscript disagreements. Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Once again, Jesus was not crushed for jewish iniquities. His punishment did not bring the jews (or anybody else) peace, and his wounds did not heal anybody. If you want to claim that the Jews killed Jesus for religious violations, as you did above, then he was not punished for anybody's iniquities but his own. By your own words, he could not have been punished for anyone's iniquities. Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. Once again, there is no record of Jesus being generally mourned. You'd think it would have been mentioned by somebody. "They have pierced me" would apply to anyone who was killed with a pointed instrument, from a nail to a sword to a spear to a ballpoint pen. It is still too vague. Note that there is no prophecy of crucifixion. So far you have not come up with any unambiguous reference to Jesus in the OT. There is not a single one. Just for fun, let's post some more prophecies of the messiah unfulfilled in Jesus. Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Jesus was buried alone, not with any wicked. Jesus did plenty of violence, in the scouring of the Temple and the blasting of the fig tree. Of course, failure is the norm for Isaiah, who prophesied that Damascus would be destroyed and the Nile would dry up, neither of which has happened. My favorite one so far: 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. Imagine, somewhere, a king shall be righteous and a prince shall judge. A brilliant prophecy, that. Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Ooops! Jesus never ruled Israel, and Bethlehem is a person, not a place. Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Believe it or not, some wackos think that this is a prophecy of Jesus coming in the flesh. Zechariah is the funniest prophecy of all: 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. 11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. There is no reference at all to the messiah in here. The gospelers simply borrowed this figure and wrongly attributed it to "Jeremy." 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. Above is the famous passage from Zechariah. Unfortunately, Jesus did not rule from sea to sea, and did not speak peace unto the heathen -- Christians have killed innumerable heathens. Well, it's been fun, but really, the OT prophecies are nowhere fulfilled in Jesus. Michael

Well done, Michael.

rodahi

1. The writer of the book known as "Daniel" is unknown, but whoever he was, he wrote around 164 BCE, not 600 BCE. The New Oxford Annotated Bible speaks for the vast majority of critical scholars: "This book appears under the name of Daniel, or Dan'el, a worthy twice referred to in Ezekiel (Ezek.14.14;28.3), and whose name appears also in the North Canaanite tablet texts found at Ras Shamra. The author was a pious Jew living under the persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes, 167-164 B.C."

[b]
Nehhhhh! Well that's the buzzer Rodahi!!! I'm sorry! You'll have to come back and try agin! Lets give him/her a enthusiastic Infidel applause folks!
I know that it's probably not your fault Rodahi! You just happened to do The Bump with Miss Information,(Porphyry,300 ce) who told you about Daniel being written in the second century bce! Yehezqel (Eze.) Tells of his comrade Daniel, who was in the same captivity about 600 bce!!!
Yehezqel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver [but] their own souls by their righteousness, saith the YHWH your Elohim.
Yehezqel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the YHWH your Elohim, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall [but] deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
Yehezqel 28:3 Behold, thou [art] wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Dan 1:6 Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah:
And even if you/Porphyry were/was wright, (there is no chance), but if, That doesn't help the atheist cause, be-cause Dan's prophesy about the 490 yrs(shabuwa),
which you say was written in the second century bce, is still long enough before the wonderful fulfilment,
Messiah beginning His ministry ,being baptized by Yah-unctionon (John) 29 ce, His being cut off in the half of the last week (his 31/2 yrs of ministry
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the YHWH.
Mat 24:2 And Yeshua said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Yeshua accepted Daniel's word as true!!!

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

[QUOTE]


[This message has been edited by aza wood (edited June 27, 2001).]

Michael means the one who is like YHWH!!!

That is so cool DRF !!! That is exactly what Yeshua did!!! That is what we do today, too!!! We read it! And believe that it is speaking to /about us!!! The last part of your statement tough, is not correct, although He did die . His rising from the dead is one of the most evident happenings of His-story!!! Over 500 people saw him(at once) after His REZ!!!
With in my circle of, just close, friends, Five of us have seen Him alive today!!! There have been reports of people seeing Him for the last 2000 years!!! So Keep Your Eyes Peeled DRF!!!

[b] [QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by aza wood (edited June 27, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aza wood:
[B] Yeshua accepted Daniel's word as true!!!

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
[QUOTE]

Well, Aza, since Jesus accepted that Daniel was a real book written in the 6th century BC, whereas we now know it was written between 167-164 BC and Daniel is entirely ficticious, you have just demonstrated that Jesus was not the Son of God.

After all, the Son of God would surely have known that a) Daniel was ficticious; and b) he was writing about his time (c. 167 BC).

Michael

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by aza wood:

Quote:

Originally posted by rodahi:

1. The writer of the book known as "Daniel" is unknown, but whoever he was, he wrote around 164 BCE, not 600 BCE. The New Oxford Annotated Bible speaks for the vast majority of critical scholars: "This book appears under the name of Daniel, or Dan'el, a worthy twice referred to in Ezekiel (Ezek.14.14;28.3), and whose name appears also in the North Canaanite tablet texts found at Ras Shamra. The author was a pious Jew living under the persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes, 167-164 B.C."

[b]

aza: Nehhhhh! Well that's the buzzer Rodahi!!! I'm sorry! You'll have to come back and try agin! Lets give him/her a enthusiastic Infidel applause folks!

No buzzer, aza. Just plain old scholarship and common sense.

aza: I know that it's probably not your fault Rodahi!

I know that it's probably not your fault that you have been indoctrinated. Many people have been.

aza: You just happened to do The Bump with Miss Information,(Porphyry,300 ce) who told you about Daniel being written in the second century bce! Yehezqel (Eze.)

Yes, Porphyry and virtually all critical scholars.

[b]aza: [Ezekiel] Tells of his comrade Daniel, who was in the same captivity about 600 bce!!!
Yehezqel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver [but] their own souls by their righteousness, saith the YHWH your Elohim.
Yehezqel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the YHWH your Elohim, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall [but] deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
Yehezqel 28:3 Behold, thou [art] wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Dan 1:6 Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah:

Big deal. I don't believe the writer. Maybe you shouldn't either.

aza: And even if you/Porphyry were/was wright, (there is no chance), but if, That doesn't help the atheist cause, be-cause Dan's prophesy about the 490 yrs(shabuwa),
which you say was written in the second century bce, is still long enough before the wonderful fulfilment,
Messiah beginning His ministry ,being baptized by Yah-unctionon (John) 29 ce, His being cut off in the half of the last week (his 31/2 yrs of ministry
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the YHWH.
Mat 24:2 And Yeshua said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Yeshua accepted Daniel's word as true!!!

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> [This message has been edited by aza wood (edited June 27, 2001).]

This just goes to show how desperate some people are. Has it ever crossed your mind that some writer was writing as if he were Daniel--you know, to make people like you think he was?

Oops, I think I hear the buzzer, aza. Time for your nap.

rodahi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DRFseven:
There have been a great many people who have wanted things; how many messiahs?
If Jesus was an actual single person (not an amalgamation or a totally fictitious character), I think it is quite possible that since HE was a Jew, he started looking closely at the prophecies and going, "Hey, wait a minute; that sounds like me!" Would explain why he got so interested in it, wouldn't it? And why he was so disappointed?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aza: That is so cool DRF !!! That is exactly what Yeshua did!!! That is what we do today, too!!! We read it! And believe that it is speaking to /about us!!!

No, aza, only those who live in Gullibleland believe as you do.

aza: The last part of your statement tough, is not correct, although He did die . His rising from the dead is one of the most evident happenings of His-story!!!

If Jesus lived, he died as all men do and he ain't coming back.

aza: Over 500 people saw him(at once) after His REZ!!!

Incorrect. A Christian zealot claimed this. Big difference. Also, even if 500 people claimed to have seen the ghost of Jesus, that does not prove that they actually saw anything.

aza: With in my circle of, just close, friends, Five of us have seen Him alive today!!!

I am not surprised, aza. People hallucinate all the time, especially those who are residents of Gullibleland.

aza: There have been reports of people seeing Him for the last 2000 years!!! So Keep Your Eyes Peeled DRF!!!

More people have seen the risen Elvis. Keep your eyes peeled, aza; you might get to see the King before too long.

Th-thank you, thank you very much.

rodahi

Hi, TSD! Can I play?

Let's begin with this:

OK. A simple definition is to be found in Heb 11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But perhaps I misunderstood your intent. I'm sure you'll straighten me out.

I also noticed that rodahi (I think) discussed at length the speculated date of the actual penning of "Daniel," even providing references. Is it just me, or did you conveniently overlook this point? If you have an argument which refutes it, it would be in your best interest to cease all petty discussion of math in lieu of defending the date you assume "Daniel" was written. Until you do that, who cares if 2+2=6 (but only in lunar years)?

At your earliest convenience, please provide book, chapter and verse. I'm sure you have it handy. Also, please bring some evidence of when, exactly, crucifixion was "invented." Thank you for your timeliness in this matter.

REAlly?

Mat 1:23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

"Matthew" seemed to think Isaiah had foretold this: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

If you disagree with the idea that Isaiah was speaking of the messiah-to-be, you must concede that "Matthew" made an inspired mistake (and why he'd make this statement is beyond me, since the child was called Jesus...not Immanuel).

Please provide book, chapter and verse to back up your argument (the NT which fulfils it and the OT prophesy which was fulfilled). Thank you.

diana