FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Biblical Criticism - 2001
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 05:55 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-10-2001, 01:12 PM   #31
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Sorry I misattributed that, rodahi.

Another interesting prophecy is the following, Mark 9.1:

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">1: And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. -- King James translation </font>
As with all King James the translation must be taken with a grain of salt I suppose. I have also heard it translated as "till they have seen the son of man come with power" or something like that. I read this as a claim that the second coming will occur within the lifetimes of those standing there. That hasn't happened, unless we are all in Heaven and don't know it.

*apologetic responses*

1) All true Christians haven't "tasted of death" in the last 2000 years because they are with Christ.

2) The kingdom of God has come with power, in the form of the Church's astonishing (and surely inexplicable by naturalistic causes) spread over Western Civilization.

3) The "son of man coming with power" actually refers to the Resurrection, which occurred well within the lifetimes of most of the people standing there.

I would like to see a better translation of this passage from the original Greek, in any case. King James is pretty worthless except for its poetic beauty.
 
Old 06-10-2001, 01:14 PM   #32
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

One prophecy has definitely been fulfilled, however: "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." Jesus hit that nail on the head.
 
Old 06-10-2001, 06:32 PM   #33
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Here is an example of a prophecy that went unfulfilled:

"the high priest asked him, 'Are you the Christ, the Son of the blessed?'
And Jesus said, 'I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.'" Mk. 14:61-62.

We KNOW from history that the questioning high priest DID NOT "see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Jesus was wrong in his prediction.

You are missing a key piece to this in your understanding. What did the high priest see when he died? What will the high priest see when Christ returns? I'll admit there is no way to prove or disprove this, it is out of faith that Christians believe this. We can argue forever about historical fulfillment but with issues dealing with what is to come for all of us in eternity is something that you either accept by faith or deny.
I was curious as to if you had any specific biblical prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah that weren't fulfilled in Jesus. Sorry if I didn't clarify that. I should be back on sometime tomorrow. Let me know what you find, thanks.
 
Old 06-10-2001, 08:51 PM   #34
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gcameron:
turtonm, a minor point, this is such a hash I can't make head or tail out of it, but it seems like the prophecy is saying the "anointed one" who is "a prince" comes after 7 weeks, whereas the other "anointed one" who is "cut off" comes yet 62 weeks beyond that. So the first princely "anointed one" would be different from the one who is supposed to be Christ. This is also assuming the word "and" in the quote "And after the sixty-two weeks, and anointed one shall be cut-off" is actually supposed to be "an" and there was a typo somewhere along the way. Sounds like Daniel is referring to two different anointed ones who live centuries apart... either that, or I'm just thoroughly confused. (Happens a lot when I read OT prophecy...)</font>
Actually, it wasn't me that said that.

Could be two. There was a "twin messiah" tradition among some groups.

Michael
 
Old 06-11-2001, 08:52 PM   #35
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tallskinnyguy:
rodahi: Here is an example of a prophecy that went unfulfilled:

"the high priest asked him, 'Are you the Christ, the Son of the blessed?'
And Jesus said, 'I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.'" Mk. 14:61-62.

We KNOW from history that the questioning high priest DID NOT "see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Jesus was wrong in his prediction.


tall: You are missing a key piece to this in your understanding.

No. I just quoted precisely what the text says. There is nothing missing.

tall: What did the high priest see when he died?

Nothing.

tall: What will the high priest see when Christ returns?

Nothing. Jesus was executed and buried almost two thousand years ago. He ain't comin' back.

tall: I'll admit there is no way to prove or disprove this, it is out of faith that Christians believe this.

It is easy to prove. The high priest died without seeing "the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Jesus was mistaken. BTW, faith is not evidence of anything.

tall: We can argue forever about historical fulfillment but with issues dealing with what is to come for all of us in eternity is something that you either accept by faith or deny.

You have no argument. You have "faith."

tall: I was curious as to if you had any specific biblical prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah that weren't fulfilled in Jesus. Sorry if I didn't clarify that. I should be back on sometime tomorrow. Let me know what you find, thanks.

There are no prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that definitively can be shown to relate to Jesus.

rodahi

 
Old 06-11-2001, 09:03 PM   #36
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

I never said there was a piece missing from your quote, I said there was a peice missing from your understanding (your interpretation).

You say the high priest saw nothing after his death. That means nothing. That is an atheist belief vs. a Christian belief. We have no way of proving what he saw or did not see. I accept one view by faith, you accept the other by doubt. I never claimed faith was evidence, a simple definition of faith explains this.


"There are no prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that definitively can be shown to relate to Jesus." -rodahi

Show me the prophecy in the Hebrew Scriptures regarding the Messiah that can't be shown to relate to Jesus.
 
Old 06-12-2001, 05:07 AM   #37
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

"There are no prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that definitively can be shown to relate to Jesus." -rodahi

Show me the prophecy in the Hebrew Scriptures regarding the Messiah that can't be shown to relate to Jesus.


Give us something hard to do, will ya? Looking at a few of the more popular messianic fantasies:

Micah 5:2, for example, says: "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel."

Did Jesus rule over Israel? No.

Micah 5:4 (RSV) says: "And they shall dwell secure, for now he shall be great to the ends of the earth."

Was Jesus great to the ends of the earth? No, nobody ever heard of him. Do we "dwell secure?" Does Israel? Nope.

Micah 5:6, which says: "...thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian
when he cometh into our land,...."


Did Jesus deliver Israel from the Assyrians? Nope.

"...and shall call his name Immanuel" (Isa. 7:14).

Jesus was never called "Immanuel."

"Behold, my servant shall prosper (Isa. 52:13 RSV).

When did Jesus prosper?

"He shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high" (52:13).

Was Jesus exalted and extolled? Not in his lifetime.

"...his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men" (52:14).

Nobody mentioned this in the NT.

Of course, these are only a few. I'm too lazy to put in all of the many contradictions.

You still haven't supplied us with the OT verse that specifically says the messiah will die and rise in 3 days.

Michael

 
Old 06-12-2001, 03:07 PM   #38
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tallskinnyguy:
tall: I never said there was a piece missing from your quote, I said there was a peice missing from your understanding (your interpretation). You say the high priest saw nothing after his death. That means nothing.

You believe he saw something after his death. Prove it.

tall: That is an atheist belief vs. a Christian belief. We have no way of proving what he saw or did not see.

Yes, we do. People don't see anything after they die. If you think otherwise, prove it.

tall: I accept one view by faith, you accept the other by doubt.

Incorrect. You accept absurd notions by "faith." I do not accept absurd notions because of a lack of evidence to support them.

If you have no belief in the god Zeus, I presume you do so because of a lack of evidence to support said belief. Is your lack of belief in Zeus based on "faith," "doubt," or available evidence?

tall: I never claimed faith was evidence, a simple definition of faith explains this.

Okay. Why have "faith" to start with?


"There are no prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that definitively can be shown to relate to Jesus." -rodahi

tall: Show me the prophecy in the Hebrew Scriptures regarding the Messiah that can't be shown to relate to Jesus.

For the time being, Michael is covering this. And quite well, I might add.

rodahi



[This message has been edited by rodahi (edited June 12, 2001).]
 
Old 06-12-2001, 04:47 PM   #39
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rodahi:
prove it</font>
The point I'm making is that we can't prove it or disprove it. You believe he didn't see something after his death. Prove it. This isn't something that can be argued either way so don't attempt to be able to. My Christian beliefs are influenced by the entire Bible. When the Bible talks about eternity in a "spiritual realm" and Christ sitting at the right hand of God in other parts of the New Testament that can be applied to the rest of life. We can't see what happens outside of the earthly realm except for what we see in the Bible regarding it. This is where the prophecy is fulfilled and the promises are fulfilled that you are still waiting for here in the earthly realm. Read the book of Revelation to get a better idea of this. If you insist on taking one verse at a time out of the context/understanding of the Bible you are going to end up with a lot of questions and arguments. Before you should spend pointless hours scrutinizing tiny portions of a book of the Bible, read the whole thing. Know what it is you are studying before you begin to take it apart. The prophecies regarding the Messiah you say weren't fulfilled can easily be explained by looking at them with a spiritual realm in the picture. If you still have questions after that, then I will try to explain more for you.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Is your lack of belief in Zeus based on "faith," "doubt," or available evidence?</font>
Answer: evidence, common sense


Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Okay. Why have "faith" to start with?</font>
Why do you have faith in historical records? You weren't there, you can't prove who recorded them was there, you can't prove the events happened. Faith is necessary to fill in where evidence leaves out or is unavailable.



[This message has been edited by tallskinnyguy (edited June 12, 2001).]
 
Old 06-12-2001, 05:55 PM   #40
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

evidence, common sense

This is exactly why we don't believe that the demon YHWH actually exists.

Why do you have faith in historical records? You weren't there, you can't prove who recorded them was there, you can't prove the events happened. Faith is necessary to fill in where evidence leaves out or is unavailable.

"faith" in historical records is not the same as blind belief in mythological events as literal truth.

Now, to head the discussion back to prophecy, I'd still like you to show me where in the OT is prophecies that the messiah is to die and rise after three days.

Michael

 
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:31 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.