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Old 04-04-2001, 04:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nomad:
[b]From Websters.com:

Main Entry: poly·the·ism
Function: noun
: belief in or worship of more than one god

Main Entry: mono·the·ism
Function: noun
: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God


I cannot believe this subject even makes it onto the boards, but wonders never cease. I used to wonder at how atheists could not even define what a Christian was, now they don't even know what a monotheist is.

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam believe in and worship one God. That this even needs to be said only shows how far intelligent discussion on these boards has slipped. The fact that the moderator of the board has gone so far as to claim Christians think that angels and Satan are supreme beings bodes ill for the future of discussions here as well.

Perhaps this is merely the silly season setting in, but I hope this is not a sign of things to come.

Nomad

[B]</font>
Nothing is as "silly" as the belief in the alleged virgin birth of Jesus or his coming back to life after his execution. These beliefs are silly in all seasons.

rodahi

 
Old 04-04-2001, 04:17 PM   #22
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If Christians want to claim that they choose definition (1), that's fine. But since, in practice, they also apply (3) and (4) to saints, Satan, angels, demons, holy sites and other entities, they will easily fit into a definition of polytheism.

As for not worshipping Satan, one only need visit a hellfire and brimstone church, or look at the constant presence of Satan in literature, movies, and other art. Satan is by far the most fascinating of the entities Christianity has invented. And Christians are endlessly involved with him. Yes, I know, they don't have a Church for him, or love him. But the worship is obvious to anyone outside your polytheistic jumble of greater and lesser powers.

As for Islam, certain strains approach Xtianity in its polytheistic tendencies, though none go quite as far as making a god out of a preacher.

And Judiasm has almost none of the dross of Christianity.....I wouldn't mind going with the monotheistic label at all for that.

From:

http://members.tripod.com/ColoradoWeb/pantheon.htm

Besides the obvious commonalities of such themes with other ancient religions now taught as mythology, this hardly appears to be monotheistic at all. By merely reserving the definition of the word “god” for Yahweh himself, this multitude of minor beings are set aside into a separate class by mere
semantics. It is interesting that when Christians teach about the religions of ancient Greece, Rome and Scandinavia, they are quick to point out that these ancient myths were about polytheism and a plethora of
gods. It is said, for example, that Zeus was the “head” of the gods of Greece, but that the others such as Hermes, Diana, and the rest of the pantheon were indeed gods in their own right. Loki, the Norse mischief-making god, appears to be a lot like the Christian concept of Satan. Yet Christians say that while Loki fits the definition of a deity, they are very quick to say “Satan is NOT a god”. Well, excuse me folks, but the old saying that if it walks, looks and quacks like a duck, it is likely a duck, seems a reasonable position here. In the biblical record, Satan inhabits a supernatural realm, can freely roam about the earth causing havoc, has invisible followers who can inhabit a person and take control of them, and in general do things impossible for mere humans, this pretty well fits the description of a god. Likewise, the angels,
demons, cherubim, seraphim, and the rest all could be defined as subordinate gods to the big boss god, Yahweh. How is this any different than any polytheistic religion invented by humans throughout history?


But Christianity? Definitely polytheistic. See this Islamic discussion below.

http://thetruereligion.org/christianity.htm

God is One. There is no Trinity. Jesus(P) is a prophet of God, and like all his fellow prophets, he is a human being. We love him, and believe in him, and affirm all of his miracles, bestowed upon him as a favour from his Lord. He called for the worship of God alone and for righteousness - as every prophet of God has done. However, his pure monotheistic message was gradually changed by some 'Christians' into a polytheistic one, by transforming Jesus(P), the servant of God, into a mythological God-incarnate figure to be worshipped alongside God All-Mighty. This distortion of the message of Jesus(P) is the religion called Christianity.

In short, you are saying that there really are NO monotheistic religions. And Huston Smith and all those other religious scholars who said that these religoins are monotheistic are just idiots.

And those scholars who claim Christ-inanity is polytheistic? Which set of scholars (Islamic or Christian) should I regard as idiots, and on what grounds?

From a Xtian apologetic site:

http://www.bibleteacher.org/con_5.htm

Many of the major religions of the world have labeled Christianity a polytheistic religion because of its belief in a triune Godhead. Both the Islamic and Jewish religions are an example of such.

Not just a few wackos; many scholars, thinkers and just plain ordinary joes argue Xtianity is polytheistic. They hit the triune god, I add the saints, angels and demons. So do many others.

Christianity is polytheistic. You wanna be a monotheist? Be a deist. Or maybe a Jew

Michael
 
Old 04-04-2001, 04:23 PM   #23
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Sorry Michael just doesn't work that way. I choose the definition 1 to define God, I choose the words of 3 and four to define supernatural being and not God. Nice try though. Hopefully you didn't go to school for this???
-Shaun
 
Old 04-04-2001, 04:24 PM   #24
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Layman:
Let us recapture the original assertion:

Turton: "No, Christianity is polytheistic. It worships a triune god, Satan, and lesser powers such as angels and saints."

Since you and Turton seem to have abandoned the idea that Christians "worship" Satan (you have, haven't you?), I'll focus on the discussion regarding angels.


I have abandoned nothing. I stated my questions very clearly. You don't seem to understand the difference between a question and an assertion.

"Layman: And I know that some of my Protestant brothers give Catholics a hard time about the prayers to Saints and Angels, but few of them ever suggested that Catholics view the saints and angels as gods."

Despite the fact that I just said that Protestants and Catholics don't view saints and angels as gods, you persisted.


"Rodahi: Does that mean that you don't believe in angels as supreme beings?"

"Layman: No, I do not believe that angels are supreme beings."

Layman: Again, despite my explicit rejection of your argument. You persisted.

"Rodahi: What are angels, if they are not supreme beings? BTW, I have no belief in them, do you?"

"Layman: Angels are created spiritual beings inferior to God. They are in no sense divine."

Layman: You were clearly suggesting that Christians believed angels (and SATAN) to be supreme beings.

You said I asserted these things. Now you say I suggested them. You are wrong on both counts. I merely asked you questions.

Layman: In fact, you were down right incredulous that I would deny such a thing.

You read too much into my questions. I am never "incredulous" about anything you say.

Layman: And, BTW, the logical extension does cover Jews and Muslims, since both affirm belief in Angels.

Again, I have spoken of Christianity and Judaism, not Islam. You can make all the "logical extensions" you wish. I have no comment on Islam.

Layman: What I want to know is WHERE you EVER heard that Christians, Jews, or Muslims considered angels (and SATAN) to be SUPREME BEINGS?

If Christians believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then they believe in more than one god. If Christians believe in angels and Satan, then they believe in supernatural entities other than Yahweh. If Christians believe that angels and Satan have powers that exceed those of human beings, then Christians believe that angels and Satan are supreme beings compared to human beings.

rodahi

 
Old 04-04-2001, 04:28 PM   #25
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"If Christians believe that angels and Satan have powers that exceed those of human beings, then Christians believe that angels and Satan are supreme beings compared to human beings." - Rodahi

Come on Rodahi, that Christian beings believe that angels and Satan are "supreme" beings compared to human beings??!!! Supreme has no relation to human. Supreme is defined as ultimate. I wouldn't say the apple pie is supreme to the apple. I would say the apple pie is better than or superior to the apple. Supreme has a totally different connotation. All of you have still not given the reason that 3 and 4 should be applied instead of 1.


[This message has been edited by Irishbrutha (edited April 04, 2001).]
 
Old 04-04-2001, 04:28 PM   #26
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I understand why Muslims and Jews have problems with the Trinity, and I don't think they are idiots for labelling us polythieists. It is an interesting theological discussion, but Christianity affirms its belief in one God, expressed in the trinity. You can quibble with the language, and I understand the Trinity is problematic, but my focus, as I have said more than once now, has been your claim that 1) Christians worship Satan, and 2) belief in Satan and Angels renders Christianity polytheistic.

And you are once again using special pleading to defend your "Christians worship satan" statement.

And as I have said before, my biggest beef with you is that you equate belief in angels and satan with polytheism. And I ask again, which religions are left once you take that definition? Islam affirms the belief in Satan and in Angels. Is it polythieistic? Even the Wahabis? Jews believe in Angels and I think many of them believe in Satan?

And what about Protestants? They reject praying to saints and angels. Are they polytheistic because they still believe that angels and satan exist?

How about Oneness Pentacostals? They reject the Trinity but accept the angels and the existence of satan?
 
Old 04-04-2001, 04:29 PM   #27
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Irishbrutha:
Sorry Michael just doesn't work that way. I choose the definition 1 to define God, I choose the words of 3 and four to define supernatural being and not God. Nice try though. Hopefully you didn't go to school for this???
-Shaun
</font>
Didn't have to. Obvious to a child. And to Muslims, and some Jews, and other religions...

As for your definition, why should I accept your choice? As the other writer said, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

Michael

 
Old 04-04-2001, 04:33 PM   #28
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"If Christians believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then they believe in more than one god."

No, because Christians are very adamant that that God is One.

"If Christians believe in angels and Satan, then they believe in supernatural entities other than Yahweh."

Yes, so what?

"If Christians believe that angels and Satan have powers that exceed those of human beings, then Christians believe that angels and Satan are supreme beings compared to human beings."

LOL!

Okay, now I am confused. Are you asserting this? Suggesting this? Or is this somehow just a question?

All I can say to your overwhelming logic is that we have very different definitions of "supreme."
 
Old 04-04-2001, 04:33 PM   #29
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rodahi:

Nothing is as "silly" as the belief in the alleged virgin birth of Jesus or his coming back to life after his execution. These beliefs are silly in all seasons.</font>
Hmm... and have you answered my question yet?

You're going to make me doubt that you really ever were a Christian rodahi. On the other hand, perhaps you could inform penatis that he should come back bail you out, and then he can tell us which Christian church teaches that Satan and the angels are supreme beings. I really am interested in finding out about this curious (and previously unknown) doctrine.

Now, stop trying to change the subject rodahi. Fess up. Who told you that Christians think of Satan and the angels as supreme beings please.

Nomad
 
Old 04-04-2001, 04:33 PM   #30
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This is kind of fun, I've never done this while all of us are on. Ok, Michael, I'll cool my jets, sorry for the insult. I just mean that the Christian definition of deity differs from the polytheistic one. So which one would you apply and why? You have not answered why the polytheistic defintion of "god" should be accepted over the Christian one. Especially when it is a discussion about christian faith. As far as trinity I agree with Layman we're talking about the elevation of angels (Satan being merely that) to Deity.
Shaun
 
 

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