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Old 03-20-2001, 07:45 AM   #21
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I don't like to be redundant, but I'm not sure why you didn't respond. So here it is again.

Do YOU actually believe that Jesus would have been more pleased with christian based communist society? Or do you think he would be happier with a group that all worked as individuals to gain personal wealth and made no personal commitment to helping support the community?

Whatsmore, it is easy to pick a few noble philanthropists in the history of capitalism, but surely you don't believe that they are the norm. Huge fortunes are built at the expense of others. Sure new wealth is created, but it is usually done through ruthless competition and the opportunity cost is realized by the losers of that competition. It is survival of the fittest, or most ruthless. It is social darwinism where people that are ruthless and competitive are succesful. The capitalist system doesn't reward the generous, it doesn't promote loving your neighbor, it promotes outdoing you neighbor and massing as much wealth as you can get.

Also, Andrew Carnegie wasn't all peaches and cream eithor, His 300 strike busters hired by Carnegia Steel in 1892 killed 10 and injured 60 members of the Amalgamated Iron and Steel Workers Union. All in the name of increasing profit. What do you think JC thought about that.

David
 
Old 03-20-2001, 09:00 AM   #22
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Jesus Christ's teachings about wealth are *very* clear.

Matthew 6:24 -- you cannot serve both God and money.

Matthew 19:21-24 -- sell everything you have and give the money to the poor; otherwise, you can't make it into the Kingdom of God.

And let's not forget about that driving of moneychangers and traders out of the Temple. Apparently, practicing capitalism turns the Temple into a "den of thieves".

And Layman's pet example, Communism, has been described as a form of capitalism in which the State is the sole capitalist.

A business's internal organization represents much of what capitalism groupies profess to oppose; businesses are generally run as bureaucratic command economies, to take just one example. I've never heard of a business that is run like the New York Stock Exchange.

In fact, capitalism groupies often have the ideological blindness of many supporters of Communism, who had celebrated ruthless, all-controlling statist systems as a steppingstone to the perfect society in which the State has withered away.

In fact, I find numerous analogies between capitalism groupies and Communist ideologues.

Although I think that capitalism is a legitimate practice, I don't think that capitalism should be allied to trample on the rest of society, even if that is what some people seem to enjoy.

And it often seems as if wealth groupies give most of their income to the richest people they know, on the ground that they are unworthy of money.
 
Old 03-20-2001, 09:13 AM   #23
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lpetrich:
Jesus Christ's teachings about wealth are *very* clear.

Matthew 6:24 -- you cannot serve both God and money.

Matthew 19:21-24 -- sell everything you have and give the money to the poor; otherwise, you can't make it into the Kingdom of God.

And let's not forget about that driving of moneychangers and traders out of the Temple. Apparently, practicing capitalism turns the Temple into a "den of thieves".

And Layman's pet example, Communism, has been described as a form of capitalism in which the State is the sole capitalist.

A business's internal organization represents much of what capitalism groupies profess to oppose; businesses are generally run as bureaucratic command economies, to take just one example. I've never heard of a business that is run like the New York Stock Exchange.

In fact, capitalism groupies often have the ideological blindness of many supporters of Communism, who had celebrated ruthless, all-controlling statist systems as a steppingstone to the perfect society in which the State has withered away.

In fact, I find numerous analogies between capitalism groupies and Communist ideologues.

Although I think that capitalism is a legitimate practice, I don't think that capitalism should be allied to trample on the rest of society, even if that is what some people seem to enjoy.

And it often seems as if wealth groupies give most of their income to the richest people they know, on the ground that they are unworthy of money.
</font>
Whoa there big fella. Dmvprof is the one who began arguing that Jesus would be a good commie. I pointed out, and maintain, that Jesus seemed more concerned with the morality and righteousness of the individual, rather than on the best form of government. And I also pointed out that his concern was on convincing people to do good things, such as share their wealth, rather than on having the state force people to do good things, such as share their wealth.

And just what does this thread have to do with Biblical Criticism and Archeology?
 
Old 03-21-2001, 05:54 AM   #24
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Layman multiple choice question.

If Jesus was asked which of the following systems would you prefer to see men use.

(Cambridge Dictionary)
A: Communism
the belief in a classless society in which the methods of production are owned and
controlled by all its members and everyone works as much as they can and receives what they need

B: Capitalism:
an economic, political and social system based on private ownership of property, business and industry, and directed towards making the greatest possible profits for successful organizations and people


A or B.

I understand that he is more concerned with spiritual matters, but I am asking you what his preference would be.


David.


 
Old 03-21-2001, 06:16 AM   #25
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Hello dmvprof

I agree with your basic proposition that Christians in general fail to live up to the arrangement in the Early Church where all shared their resources.

Capitalism and the profit motive are antithetical to Christian justice and those who merely take advantage of the capitalist system while allowing poverty and disease and genocide to go unchecked will answer to God.

I just don't see any alternative system doing any better than the Christian ethic requires and I see many alternative systems that are a lot worse.

If atheists got behind the Christian ethic as expressed in Matthew 25 31-46 they too would avoid the hypocrisy of enjoying material blessings while others don't.

Clearly an idealistic solution requires idealistic people.

Caring atheists and caring Christians have more in common than either care to admit.

What is stopping co-operation? Is it always necessary to blast Christians in debate or is there a way for moral Atheists to co-operate with moral Christians?

Are Christians to carry the entire burden?

What is the answer?

Blessings and Peace

Hilarius
 
Old 03-21-2001, 06:54 AM   #26
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hilarius:
Hello dmvprof

I agree with your basic proposition that Christians in general fail to live up to the arrangement in the Early Church where all shared their resources.

Capitalism and the profit motive are antithetical to Christian justice and those who merely take advantage of the capitalist system while allowing poverty and disease and genocide to go unchecked will answer to God.

I just don't see any alternative system doing any better than the Christian ethic requires and I see many alternative systems that are a lot worse.

If atheists got behind the Christian ethic as expressed in Matthew 25 31-46 they too would avoid the hypocrisy of enjoying material blessings while others don't.

Clearly an idealistic solution requires idealistic people.

Caring atheists and caring Christians have more in common than either care to admit.

What is stopping co-operation? Is it always necessary to blast Christians in debate or is there a way for moral Atheists to co-operate with moral Christians?

Are Christians to carry the entire burden?

What is the answer?

Blessings and Peace

Hilarius
</font>
Do you actually think Christians are 'carrying the entire burden' of charity work?

Trouble living in the real world?
 
Old 03-22-2001, 12:58 AM   #27
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Does anyone have any thoughts on the fact that for whatever reason the Christian Religion thrives in capitalist governments even though the doctrine of the religion is much more in accord with communist and socialist governments.</font>
Personally I see religious Christianity as capitalism, period! It is simple supply and demand. People want a product and someone is sharp enough to tell them they can have it for a few bucks. What's to understand? It IS capitalism pure and simple.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I know all of the founding fathers were not Christians, but I believe that the majority of the colonists that had influence were Christians, I admit that this is an assumption.</font>
My observation on this is that these men were smart enough historically to see the failure of state religion. Remember, lovable George was guarding the faith of the Church of England, from which many of these colonists had fled.

But there is also the possibility that the framers of the constitution were jealously guarding their own beliefs, and in order to keep them safe, only one option made sense. The real enemy was across the pond, not in the next church or pew.

I think the reason that the type of communist states we see today, such as the former Soviet Union and China, are not fond of religion is because religion truly IS capitalistic as practiced in the west.
 
Old 03-22-2001, 05:42 AM   #28
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Thats interesting Joe, Christianity is an economic system, a business. Churches put on little shows every Sunday to make people feal better, then pass a plate around just like street performers do to gather money. However, I don't know if this is a result of any biblical teaching. As cited above:

Matthew 19:21-24 -- sell everything you have and give the money to the poor; otherwise, you can't make it into the Kingdom of God

This would seem to contradict the that idea comes from the bible, and support that the churches have formed an economic model loosely based on christianity.

david
 
Old 03-22-2001, 07:03 AM   #29
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Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me

Oh,ho,ho! Did Jesus say sell? Why I think he did! Sell your goods, oh yes give to the poor but this can be accomplished in a capatalist society! Knowing the Bible, this can be interpereted just how I want it. Not only that, but I don't have to SERVE money, but merely survive with it, so that verse is out. It is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven? Well do you think that he was talking about then rich, or now rich. I think Bill Gates is slightly more rich than any of the goofs Jesus was talking with, so I think rich is just a little to subjective a word to pertain to salvation.

It is so funny DmvProf, you must think you are dealing with a capatalist christian, when in reality I am an agnostic playing the devil's advocate.
 
Old 03-22-2001, 10:29 AM   #30
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I just don't know what to say to that, except that it doesn't make much sense.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Sell your goods, oh yes give to the poor but this can be accomplished in a capatalist society!
</font>
Please explain what you mean by this? You think it is a capitalist notion to sell what you have then give it all away? Hmm, Maybe that is what got Ted Turner his millions, just give it all away.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Well do you think that he was talking about then rich, or now rich.
</font>
LMAO, You must have been to the Bill Clinton school of debate.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
It is so funny DmvProf, you must think you are dealing with a capatalist christian, when in reality I am an agnostic playing the devil's advocate.</font>
Playin, for real, doesn't matter, just matters what your post.

David.
 
 

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