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Old 10-28-2001, 02:53 PM   #11
ChadD
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"Chad just as a point to note, not everything published on the internet is either trustworthy or reliable. Any idiot can get online and publish all sorts of nonsense, and appear to be much larger than they really are. They can also claim far more authority, that people seem strangely willing to accept with little or no evidence."

It is not that any old joe may present evidence that Jesus was not what the Bible claims, but that with the internet, the question is allowed to be asked, "Yes, but can they provide you with persuasive evidence for their claim, that Jesus did indeed exist as the Bible maintains?"

The question does not exist in a void, and there is no practical purpose to consider it in such a manner. If you succeed in persuading someone that the Bible accurately records Jesus' teachings, and further that the early Christians were indeed correct, then you in so doing also persuade the individual that if they do not change their ways, that they are damned to hell.

It is foolish to suggest that this is an easy task. Whether or not it *should* be is beside the question; it is *not* an easy task.

[ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: ChadD ]
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Old 10-28-2001, 03:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by svensky:
<STRONG>The argument is that the apostles, where all killed for preaching christ crucified. Except for Juda Iscariot (guess why) and john who dies while in exile in patmos. So if all of these guys where willing to die becasue they beleived christ rose from the dead and they would know, then it follows from this that you can trust there testimony. I always found it a quite compelling argument that lacks any really good refutation. Unless you wish to claim that not only did christ not exist but neither did any of the apostles. But how large does the circle need to get.

Jason</STRONG>
History is replete with examples of people who were willing to die for their beliefs. You've been given numerous examples.

I would like to add that even when not threatened with death, believers in various phenomena have often been willing to do all sorts of other bizarre things because of those beliefs.

The followers of Aum Shinri Kyo were so in awe of leader Shoko Asahara's supernatural powers that they were willing to release nerve gas on a Tokyo subway at his command.
Why would they do this if he did not really display supernatural powers?

Not everyone who has come forward with an alien abduction story has sold a book and made a fortune. Some have lost their jobs and their spouses and have become objects of derision and ridicule in their communities. Yet they maintain that their stories are true. Why would they do this if those stories are not true?


The followers of self-proclaimed messiah Rock Theriault allowed themselves and their children to be beaten, burned, mutilated and tortured by him because they believed he was who he said he was. Why would they endure such abuse from anyone who was a fraud?

It should be obvious at this point that being willing to do crazy things -even die- for one's belief is not indicative of the truth of the belief.
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Old 10-28-2001, 07:28 PM   #13
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Actually, the Bible only records two Christians who were martyred: Stephen (Acts 7) and James the apostle (Acts 12).

Read both texts carefully. Stephen (who did not claim to be a witness to the resurrection as far as we know)was stoned after saying that Jesus was the "Righteous One" and insulting his Jewish listeners.

According to Acts 12, James was executed by Herod as a political move to please the Jews. Neither was martyred for claiming to have witnessed the resurrection. The traditions about the other apostles being martyred are just that: traditions.

Interesting side point. Paul was arrested (Acts 21) on the accusation that he had brought Greeks into the temple area. Yet in Acts 23, he lies blatantly, saying that he was arrested because of his belief in the resurrection of the dead. Why? Verse 6 indicates that he did it because he knew that would create a commotion between the Pharisees and Sadduccees. Lying to save his skin? Yup! Perhaps Alan Dershowitz was right when he said that what Jesus really needed at his trial was a good Jewish lawyer.
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Old 10-28-2001, 10:05 PM   #14
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There's probably a better argument to be made that people who die for their beliefs are in fact dying for someone elses belief.
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Old 10-28-2001, 11:41 PM   #15
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I think what i meant by the apostles where martyr'd argument, is that they where eyewitness's to the ressurection, or at least claimed to be. So no, they where not merely sincerly deceived, if christs ressurection is a lie, then they didn't buy a lie, they sold it. That was my point. They where the inner circle to compare the argument to the Wovka one.

Jason
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Old 10-28-2001, 11:44 PM   #16
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As an addendum to my last post, i wasn't suggesting that the martydom of the apsotles is sufficent evidence on its own to convince someone of the truth of christianity, but it is a point in the favour of the possible truth of the account.

Jason
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Old 10-29-2001, 03:36 AM   #17
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Martyrs?
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Old 10-29-2001, 07:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by svensky:
<STRONG>I think what i meant by the apostles where martyr'd argument, is that they where eyewitness's to the ressurection, or at least claimed to be. So no, they where not merely sincerly deceived, if christs ressurection is a lie, then they didn't buy a lie, they sold it. That was my point. They where the inner circle to compare the argument to the Wovka one.

Jason</STRONG>
And you keep ignoring our reminders that other people have been willing to die, or be tortured, or be publicly humiliated, etc for their beliefs, and that in some cases their belief was so strong precisely because they had personally witnessed some sort of extraordinary or seemingly miraculous event.
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Old 10-29-2001, 04:44 PM   #19
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If the deaths of early Christians prove that Jesus is Lord of All, then the deaths of 20th Century Turks proves that the Fez is the Lord of All Hats.

In a nutshell, when Kamal Ataturk wanted to radically modernize Turkey in 1925, he banned the traditional fez, thinking it was a backward style of headgear. Despite the threat of imprisonment and execution, men still wore fezzes.

Thus we see that humans will be stubborn and allow themselves to be killed whenever they think they are right, even when they cling to an arbitrary principle.
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Old 10-29-2001, 10:22 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by lpetrich:
[QB]That's another apologist argument that "933326087" had made, that the early Christians had been willing to die for their beliefs, therefore those beliefs must be true, since nobody would be willing to die for a lie.
[QB]
I don't have time to enter another thread (or even be on this board at all if I'm honest with myself) but I want to correct what seems to me to be sort of a "misquote". I did not claim that dying for one's belief shows that belief to be necesarily true. I claimed that it shows those who gave their lives were convinced of the truth of their belief. "No one dies for a lie" is much better said as "No one dies for what they know is a lie."

Somehow, the Apostles (I believe there is a high probability that that they knew a historical man named Jesus Christ) were convinced that they had known Jesus, seen him die, and seen him raised again to life.
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