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Old 12-01-2001, 09:18 AM   #1
Duck!
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Post Census at time of Jesus' birth.

I was arguing with someone recently who insisted that Jesus was actually, definitely born on December 25th. I argued that the date of his birth is unknown and that December 25th is used because the Church hijacked a pagan solstice festival of some sort for their own purposes. This offended him quite a bit and someone else claimed that there actually was a census in December at the time of his birth which showed his name.

My question is this, is there any record of a census taken at the time with Jesus' name on it? It could be useful ammunition the next time the argument comes up (and it will soon, being Xmas time and that).


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Old 12-01-2001, 12:45 PM   #2
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The book of Luke tells of a world Ėwide census of the Roman Empire, requiring all citizens to be registered in their own city. This is how Jesus came to be born in a manger not at home. Neither Matthew nor Mark mention this census, and Roman histories donít either.

Historians believe that a local census was carried in the region of Syria around 6 BC which included Judaea. It is possible that Luke used the census to date the birth of Jesus within a number of years, but certainly not to the exact month.
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Old 12-01-2001, 12:58 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Major Billy:
<strong>The book of Luke tells of a world –wide census of the Roman Empire, requiring all citizens to be registered in their own city. This is how Jesus came to be born in a manger not at home. Neither Matthew nor Mark mention this census, and Roman histories don’t either.

Historians believe that a local census was carried in the region of Syria around 6 BC which included Judaea. It is possible that Luke used the census to date the birth of Jesus within a number of years, but certainly not to the exact month.</strong>
So there might have been a census around 6 BC where Jesus was born? I take it in that case that the actual census records aren't available. So the argument that historical records show that Jesus' name was recorded on a census around the time of his birth is not true?

Thanks, this could be very useful when the next drunken argument about the birth of Christ commences......


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Old 12-01-2001, 01:22 PM   #4
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Actually, quite a bit is known about the history of the December 25 date. The earliest Christians did not celebrate Christ's birth, and the earliest traditional date was January 7. Before they took up with Christianity, the Romans had adopted Mithra as their state God, and they celebrated Mithra's birth on December 25, which was the winter solstice pagan holiday of Saturnalia originally. Pope Julius I chose to celebrate Christ's birthday on December 25, thus causing a rift with the eastern Orthodox church. For some of this background see <a href="http://www.historychannel.com/cgi-bin/frameit.cgi?p=http%3A//www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/real2.html" target="_blank">this web page</a>, which is put up by the History Channel.

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: copernicus ]</p>
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Old 12-01-2001, 01:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Duck of Death:
<strong>So the argument that historical records show that Jesus' name was recorded on a census around the time of his birth is not true?</strong>
Not only is there no historical record of Jesus' name ever being recorded on a census, there is no historical record of the Jesus ever existing period.
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Old 12-01-2001, 01:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by copernicus:
<strong>Actually, quite a bit is known about the history of the December 25 date. The earliest Christians did not celebrate Christ's birth, and the earliest traditional date was January 7. Before they took up with Christianity, the Romans had adopted Mithra as their state God, and they celebrated Mithra's birth on December 25, which was the winter solstice pagan holiday of Saturnalia originally. Pope Julius I chose to celebrate Christ's birthday on December 25, thus causing a rift with the eastern Orthodox church. For some of this background see <a href="http://www.historychannel.com/cgi-bin/frameit.cgi?p=http%3A//www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/real2.html" target="_blank">this web page</a>, which is put up by the History Channel.

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: copernicus ]</strong>
Thanks, that's just the kind of source I need.


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Old 12-01-2001, 02:12 PM   #7
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If the other guy says there was a census with Jesus' name on it HE needs to produce the evidence. I'd be curious what he comes up with.
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Old 12-01-2001, 03:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henrietta:
<strong>If the other guy says there was a census with Jesus' name on it HE needs to produce the evidence. I'd be curious what he comes up with.</strong>
Oh it's not too hard to guess what he'll say....

HIM : It was a book I read a while back....

ME : Can you name this book, I'd like to check it out......

HIM : No, I don't have the name or the author. But I guarantee the book existed and that the reference is reliable.

ME : Right.............


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Old 12-02-2001, 10:12 PM   #9
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Census


Antiquities of the
Jews - Book XVIII

CHAPTER 2.

NOW HEROD AND PHILIP BUILT SEVERAL CITIES IN HONOR OF CAESAR.
CONCERNING THE SUCCESSION OF PRIESTS AND PROCURATORS; AS ALSO WHAT BEFELL
PHRAATES AND THE PARTHIANS.

1. WHEN Cyrenius had now disposed of Archelaus's money, and when the
taxings were come to a conclusion, which were made in the thirty-seventh
year of Caesar's victory over Antony at Actium, he deprived Joazar of the
high priesthood, ...

Actium,
Battle of
(Sept. 2, 31 BC), naval battle off a promontory in the north of
Acarnania, on the western coast of Greece, where Octavian, by his decisive
victory over Mark Antony, became the undisputed master of the Roman world
(as the emperor Augustus).

Offa;
There is a record of a census taken by Augustus. Thirty-seven years after
31 BC is the year is AD 6.

MAT 02:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise
men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the
children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts
thereof, from two years old and under, according to the
time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
MAT 02:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the
prophet, saying,
MAT 02:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping,
and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and
would not be comforted, because they are not.
MAT 02:19 But when. Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord
appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

Offa; Jesus was alive before king Herod died.

Herod; Roman-appointed king of Judaea (37-4 BC), who built many fortresses,
aqueducts, theatres, and other public buildings and generally raised the
prosperity of his land but who was the centre of political and family
intrigues in his later years. The New Testament portrays him as a tyrant,
into whose kingdom Jesus of Nazareth was born.

Offa; If Jesus was born before Herod died
then Jesus would have been at least eleven years old when the census was taken.

Here is what I found in The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 1,
chapter 12.3,

Now, at the first, he did not agree
to what Sarah was so zealous for, and thought it an instance of the greatest
barbarity, to send away a young child* ...

*notes made by William Whiston (translator of Josephus' Works.
"Josephus here calls Ismael a young child or infant, though he was about
13 years of age; as Judas calls himself and his brethren young men, when
he was 47, and had two children, Antiq. B. II. ch. 6. sect. 8, and they
were of much the same age; as is a damsel of 12 years old called a little
child, Mark 5:39-42, five several times. Herod is also said by Josephus
to be a very young man at 25. See the note on Antiq. B. XIV. ch. 9. sect
2, and of the War, B. I. ch. 10. And Aristobulus is styled a very little
child at 16 years of age, Antiq. B. XV. ch. 2. sect. 6, 7. Domitian also
is called by him a very young child, when he went on his German expedition
at about 18 years of age, of the War, B. VII. ch. 4. sect. 2. Samson's
wife, and Ruth, when they were widows, are called children, Antiq. B. V.
ch. 8. sect. 6, and ch. 9. sect. 2 3."

Offa; If you read The Works of Josephus
translated by William Whiston you will find many occasions where
young children perform remarkable deeds. The solution is quite obvious,
that is, these Hebrews become one year old when they are begat (celebrate
their bar mitzvah).
The Jesus who was in the manger is a 12/13 year old lad and his swaddling
clothes are the garb of an acolyte.


Luke 02:42 And when he was twelve years old*, they went up to
Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
Luke 02:43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they
returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem;
and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
Luke 02:44 But they, supposing him to have been in the
company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among
their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
Luke 02:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again
to Jerusalem, seeking him.
Luke 02:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they
found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the
doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luke 02:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his
understanding and answers.
Luke 02:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his
mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with
us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luke 02:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me?
wist ye not that I must be about my Father's** business?

Offa; *Jesus is 12 + a one year old child and this is
twelve years after AD 6 or the year AD 18. **my Father is not
Joseph, but, instead, the Gentile high priest Eleazar Annas. Jesus
is committing adultery, that is, he is changing his following.
It is at this time that he becomes illegitimate.

thanks,
offa
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Old 12-06-2001, 04:34 PM   #10
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Actually, if there had been any Census, the name of Jesus would not have appeared. Jesus is the Greak translation of the name. More likely it would have appeared as Joshua ben Joseph. Joshua son of Joseph.
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