A "Dictation?" Sometimes, not always. Dictation is only one view of 'inspiration'. "Thus says the Lord" passages are definitely dictation, but Judges does not follow that model.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Could one not argue that many events happened in the lives of the Israelites, but only certain events made it into the bible because GOD felt it was necessary to have the events narrated for the betterment of posterity? Why on Earth would a god INSIST that this particular story be given to man through the guidance of the holy spirit and remembered by all who read it? Can it be said that some things, possibly many things in the bible should not be taken literally? </font>

It just means that this is a historical story. It should be taken literally, yet there is no reason to take it as an example to applaud or follow.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> How does one decipher which parts to keep and which parts to throw out? </font>

First, you find all the passages that are commandments, see who they apply to etc. You also check in stories whether certain acts are commended or disdained. Stories that do neither may be interpretted by other passages referring to similar acts. Of course the NT makes it clear that we are no longer 'under law' and we already understand we are not compelled to obey the Law received by Moses.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Do I keep the parts that suit me and discard those that seems “wrong?” If one does, isn’t one admitting that god has erred? What does that say about the god of the Judeo-Christian bible? What is one to learn from the particular story? If this god is omnipotent, he must have known that this mans daughter would be the first to enter, know the pain and sorrow such a vow would cause this man (not to mention breaking a supreme commandment of thou shalt not murder), yet this god said “OK, I will give you what you request and hand you these innocent men, women and children so you may slay them, take their lands, their herds, their virgins and moneys and in return you will give me a burnt offering.” So, god knew the girl would be the sacrificial lamb, but he did not stop this man from fulfilling this vow. He allowed a human sacrifice to be made in homage of Him. </font>

If Jepthah had had just a little more brains he could have easily sacrificed an animal instead. He should have simply vowed to sacrifice one of his goats; but he had to make an ambiguous vow as he did, and so it was his own fault.

What this story does illustrate is the good reason why Jesus(and James) commanded man "Not to swear." Swearing tends to involve a kind of self-rigtheousness involving pride in the flesh. What we can give for God. God allowed the practice as a provisional kindness to man, to allow him to 'give' something back to God, attempt to express his love, gratitude, etc. to God. Jepthah did not do it in a very wise way.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> My opinion is that this god is cruel, malicious and a trickster. Maybe we could see if from the point of view that when man makes a murderous bargain with a god, that something equally as horrible will befall man. But it hardly seems fair that this man should loose his only child for the slaughter of hundreds, if not thousands of innocent men, women and children. I look forward to the answers to my questions. brighid

It means one should be careful about one promises. That is hardly a bad moral- I think that is a good universal teaching. Don't promise to give what you are not prepared to give.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Teutonic Secular Web Visitor posted May 06, 2001 05:50 PM I just read the story of Jephthah's Tragic Vow - (Judges 11:29-40). Seems this guy Jephthah makes a vow - if the LORD will give the sons of Ammon into his hand - he vows to offer up to the Lord as a burnt offering the first thing that comes out of his doors to greet him upon his return. Of course, Jephthah and his people slaughter Ammon's people... and then Jephthah's only child, a young daughter, comes out of the door to greet him upon his return, she's all happy, dancing and playing the tambourine. Jephthah tells her about the vow and she appears to be cool with it, .......... That is very heavy. So, according to this, the LORD accepted human sacrifice... hmmmm.... Does anyone else out there get the creeps reading this? ------------------------------------------ a_theistnotatheist Secular Web Regular posted May 07, 2001 03:19 AM Where is the claim that this is 'wisdom' in the Bible? The story is told very non-committal. One shouldn't argue to *do* something or that something is OK just because someone did it in the Bible. A "Dictation?" Sometimes, not always. Dictation is only one view of 'inspiration'. "Thus says the Lord" passages are definitely dictation, but Judges does not follow that model. It just means that this is a historical story. It should be taken literally, yet there is no reason to take it as an example to applaud or follow. If Jephthah had just a little more brains he could have easily sacrificed an animal instead. He should have simply vowed to sacrifice one of his goats; but he had to make an ambiguous vow as he did, and so it was his own fault. What this story does illustrate is the good reason why Jesus(and James) commanded man "Not to swear." Swearing tends to involve a kind of self-righteousness involving pride in the flesh. What we can give for God. God allowed the practice as a provisional kindness to man, to allow him to 'give' something back to God, attempt to express his love, gratitude, etc. to God. Jephthah did not do it in a very wise way. It means one should be careful about one promises. That is hardly a bad moral- I think that is a good universal teaching. Don't promise to give what you are not prepared to give. </font>

This story and the response by * a_theistnotatheist* highlights many of the problems I have with the Bible, Christianity and most importantly modern Christians.

Hebrews 11: 32 - 34 (KJV) And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: Who through faith worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire , escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

A_thesist I think you are unfortunately representative of a true Christian mind set. "It just means that this is a historical story. It should be taken literally, yet there is no reason to take it as an example to applaud or follow."

I wonder why is the name of Jephthah (& Samson but that is for another time) is included on this list if what he did was not considered acceptable to God. I hold the view (that has been echoed by others ie CrazyLittleJew ) that what "Christians" are doing is putting a the story into a context and placing meanings into it based on their theology. What (excuse the words) "proof" or "evidence" is there concerning the author of that passage (who wrote it , when), their intent, their cultural setting etc. To be honest all we have is speculation. I think it is a gross over simplification to view the "Bible" as a single document yet modern "Christians" do just that , however what really bothers me is the unwillingness to express real compassion for "MINOR" characters involved. Where was the Ram in the thicket for this unnamed maiden, where was the voice of G-d, where were the angelic messengers? If the act of Human sacrifice was so distasteful..... Oh never mind I know G-d works in mysterious ways and uses who and what he will and Humans and their comprehension, morals, values are of no consequence. Sorry but it seems to be reflective of the attitude ...since G-d is Love and Good and the bible is the word of G-d one can not question certain things any doubt, criticism contrary views must be of the devil (whatever)..... Who wrote the book of Gad, what was in it, why was it not preserved? 2-Timothy 3:16 .....

***Judges 11 : 29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah ....... *** nowhere do I see as in the case of Saul G-d withdrawing from him ... no one (believer) then or now raises objections..... Judges 12 :7 And Jephthah judged Isreal six years ........ (this is after the sacrifce of his daughter)

Sorry for the rant .... Teutonic to answer your orginal question YES this story gives me the creeps but the spin doctors (apologist is too nice) are more frightening ......
The ends do not justify the means ..... not even for G-d who supposedly has the power, wisdom to do all things ... I know an arguement from silence ... "Just because there was no sign from G-d against it (in the text) does not mean it was acceptable in G-d's sight" Yeah whatever

[This message has been edited by Justus (edited May 11, 2001).]