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Old 06-27-2001, 04:07 AM   #21
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Just as a thought here, the Christian belief
in the resurrection of Jesus may not be "as it's presented" in the Gospels.

The Ancient Hebrew laws (prior to Jesus)
said that if a man dishonored himself by acting in a manner unacceptable to the community, or was disobedient to the laws of God, he could be "cut off" by the leaders.

They would banish the man into the desert alone, and the community would be forbidden
to even speak his name aloud.

This was "death".

The name of the man would never be spoken again, and in that context he was in fact,
dead.

But, if the man repented and asked for forgiveness, there existed a way for him to be pardoned.

As a repentent man, he could return to the community in three days time.

And welcomed as a new man, with past deeds
forgiven, "resurrected" from the dead.

So the man was dead, in the eyes of the community, he was turned out for three days, and if he was repented he would be able after the three days of death, to be resurrected back into the community.

There are those scholars in modern times,
who believe that the resurrection story of
Jesus was an embellishment of this ancient hebrew law.

They say that in order for the story of Jesus to have the proper impact, Christianity modified the hebrew law.

Is this a valid concept? Who knows for sure,
but it certainly has the ring of truth.

The resurrection story or clones of it existed in many different cultures of the time period just prior to Jesus's ministry.

If you think that the Jesus of the canonical
Gospels was a real person, and not a mythological supreme being, then this approach may have meaning as to the explanation behind the "resurrection".
W
 
Old 06-27-2001, 08:50 AM   #22
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Christ lived a sinless life, so his body was plausibly able to enter heaven whether it was flesh or not. It is the sin nature within the body that makes the body "disgusting" to God.
 
Old 06-27-2001, 09:01 AM   #23
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But there is another factor to consider and it is that there are people who have been dead for years and their buried bodies have already turned to dust, they are no longer bodies just dust.

How God and/or Jesus will handle this is beyond me.

Good day.[/B][/QUOTE]

Apparenlty, people that have lost or are born without limbs will have them restored. Kinda makes you wonder whether you should be an organ donor. If I donate my kidney when I die, and I'm taken up in the rapture, would my dontated kidney fly from the recipient's body (assuming they're not saved) to meet me in the sky?
 
Old 06-27-2001, 09:13 AM   #24
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Asimis:
Now about that ONE resurrection. I will pretend for a while that it did in fact happened And his body was intact because he was only dead for three days; and it was an example of what will happened to the dead in his second coming. But there is another factor to consider and it is that there are people who have been dead for years and their buried bodies have already turned to dust, they are no longer bodies just dust. How God and/or Jesus will handle this is beyond me.
Good day.
</font>
You're forgetting (or don't yet know) that there is one and only defense to this assertion in Christendom. It is the magic wand of supernatural power that God weilds at his discretion. The souls of beleivers will be re-united with their corporeal bodies in "Glorified Form", as Jesus was resurrected. Without belief in this, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, there is no hope, and all our teaching is in vain, for their is no eternal life.

Sounds completely kooky, doesn't it?? But this is exactly where "faith" come in. If the Bible says it will be this way, then it will be this way.

I recommend that any decisions you take with respect to belief or non-belief in Jesus and the God of the Bible, begin with 1 Corinthians 15 (13-15 I think). Because if you can not accept that the resurrection of Christ as true, then forget it all...NONE of it is true. There are lots of essays on this topic in the Library here at SecWeb. But examine the other side as well.

 
Old 06-28-2001, 08:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You're forgetting (or don't yet know) that there is one and only defense to this assertion in Christendom. It is the magic wand of supernatural power that God weilds at his discretion. The souls of beleivers will be re-united with their corporeal bodies in "Glorified Form", as Jesus was resurrected. Without belief in this, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, there is no hope, and all our teaching is in vain, for their is no eternal life.</font>
And it seems to the that this wand never had any power of its own...only the one mankind has given to it. And some how its power has been fading slowly as science takes it away form it. Ironic isnt it?

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Sounds completely kooky, doesn't it?? But this is exactly where "faith" come in. If the Bible says it will be this way, then it will be this way.</font>
It is called "blind faith" not even Christians are sure of what awaits them when they die. They can only hope for that to be real. Thats what they do with their "faith".

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I recommend that any decisions you take with respect to belief or non-belief in Jesus and the God of the Bible, begin with 1 Corinthians 15 (13-15 I think). Because if you can not accept that the resurrection of Christ as true, then forget it all...NONE of it is true. There are lots of essays on this topic in the Library here at SecWeb. But examine the other side as well.</font>
Oh but the resurrection is another contradictorry issue. And it is not clear if it happened or not.

And ill be and hypocrite if i didnt read the bible (something i do) and blame it.
 
Old 07-06-2001, 09:45 AM   #26
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THE BIBLICAL HEAVEN, INTERESTING QUESTION.
I find this biblical subject fascinating and will be able to cover the subject quite wellIf need be but I will try to keep it simple for now.

Common Christian belief is that when we die we go either to heaven or hell. The problem is that this is not consistent with the bible. There is not one single scripture in the bible that says word for word we go to heaven but there is plenty that say we dosn`t.

I will give scriptures to show this after I give you an idea on were I`m going with this and I will answer all of your questions without having to highlight any one of your points.

When the bible talks of heaven it is talking 1 of 3 contexts:

1.the sky and atmosphere (or some times called the firmament).
2. The stars and planets or universe.
3. Gods (kingdom) or way of doing things, commonly quoted as kingdom of god or kingdom of heaven, both referring to his authority and majesty of this realm.


Heaven is used in all these contexts but none of these context say there is a heaven in the spirit realm.

It does say that god is spirit, it also says that he is every were at once (heaven is my throne and earth is my foot stool) simply means that god is every were at once. (You could think it`s saying that god lives in heaven but if heaven hear means heavens (universe) then that dosn`t fit .the bible says also that angels are celestial beings not spirits and thay live in the heavens. humans are terrestrial and are earth bound (without spaceships anyway, lol.).

So, if there is no heaven as such, what are Christians talking about:

The bible talks about paradise from beginning to end and in no way is referring to heaven; the problem is it is interpreted as that.
So whats the difference between the Christian heaven and the bible paradise

Christian heaven = when we die we go strait to heaven if you’re a Christian and strait to hell if your not (I can prove the bible dose not say this at all either).

Bible paradise= is a day when jesus the massiah returns (with 10000 angels) and sets up a kingdom on earth (in Israel) after bringing great destruction, he will raise the dead in Christ first and thay will rule over the world and bring about world peace that will last 1000 yrs until it all happens again and then god turns up and raises every one from the dead and every one must give account of word spoken. There will be great judgment on the grounds of what we do with jesus (the anointed king of this kingdom by god). Jesus will separate the sheep from the goat and will say to the sheep, “you did good”. Thay say,” when did we good “. He says, “When you did good to these my brothers (those in the first resurrection) you did good to me, you come into life eternal. Then he turned to the goats and said, “You hated, persecuted and killed me”. Thay will say,” when, we don’t even no you” and he will say “when you did this to these my brothers you did it to me” you go into the fiery lake which I have kept in store for the devil and his serpent angels. Then god recreates the whole heavens and earth again and it all starts again. But this time it is created totally different. Abit like the heaven Christians believe but this is never referred to in the bible as heaven.
So when Christians say “I`M SAVED” 9 times out of 10 he dosn`t even no what that means (especially if thay believe there going to heaven or hell).
So, what dose saved mean biblically: brief; two things 1. Saved for the resurrection 2.saved from the judgment throu repentance and forgiveness those who receive the sacrifice that jesus made for us all will not sit the judgment on the last day as thay have dealt with and do deal with their sin before god already throu this offering he made off his own life.
So, the first thousand yrs rain after jesus returns is referred to in the bible as paradise because when he returns he brings peace on earth, death shall be done away with and so will disease and famine. There will be war no more according to the bible that is.
The bible also talks of a future time again and it always calls it the new heaven and the new earth, never heaven.
So, were did Christians come up with these unbiblical doctrines. The same way thay came up with Father Christmas and Easter bunny, to take away from who Jesus is, THE MASSIAH.

The bible says that when you die you are dead until the resurrection and judgment. (Hence the sayingR.I.P).
This is why god sent Jesus, all men had sinned and there for died, (what a tragedy) so god sent jesus as his only begotten son the save the souls of men because man was perishing (and would sooner or later perish altogether) and god loved man so much that he required his son to lay his life down to draw men to god and then god rose jesus from the dead and throu him promised to raise the whole world, as god did not originally create up to perish but some will face damnation as a result of there actions. So jesus becomes the resurrection and life to a dieing world and even after 2000 yrs of perishing to the point of extinction over the next couple of hundred years I’d say this is good news and that’s exactly what the apostles called it, that’s what gospel means (good news).
Another thing to, when the bible speaks of hell in the Greek and Hebrew it actually reads grave (most of the time).
Concerning husbands and wife’s this will not exist in the resurrection (it will be more like brother and sister)
Considering all this now check this out.

So, now I will put some scriptures together for you:

ACTS
29
Men and brethren let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
AND
34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

Notice it says heavenssssss meaning stars and planets.
Also notice even after Jesus is risen and taken up into the heavens David is still in the grave.

NOW

John 3
13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.

And

Proverbs 30
4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
NOW

Genesis 3
19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

And
Matthew 18
14
Even so it is not the will of your Father, which is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

And
John 3
12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.
14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15
That whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have eternal life.
16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life.
17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20
For every one that doeth evil hated the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God

NOW &lt; GOD IS EVERY WERE &gt; NOT IN SO CALLED HEAVEN (notice how this references to heaven are about the stars and planets.) the word heaven especially shows up in the beginning about creation always as a part of that physical realm.

Isaiah 66
1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? And where is the place of my rest?

And

Acts 7
48
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49
Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50
Hath not my hand made all these things?

Christians seem to take this as meaning that god lives up there in heaven and looks down hear but infact god is every were (all the matireal realm is created with in him(it is him???)


NOW concerning your questian of marrage? AND THE RESURRECTION(not heaven)
Matthew 22
23
The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24
Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25
Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26
Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27
And last of all the woman died also.
28
Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33
And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.


NOW CONCERNING THE RESURECTION.
Notice that never once is man going to heaven when he dies ( that wasn`t the promise) it was the promise that god would raise the dead throu jesus like he did to jesus.(also notice when heaven is mentioned it is talking about out there in space every time.)
Luke 14
13
But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:

14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

And
JOHN 5
25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And


John 11
23
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And

Acts 4
1
And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
2
Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
3
And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
And

Acts 24
14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16
And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.
And

Philippians 3
10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

THIS IS A PERFECT LOOK AT EARLY CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE


Hebrews 6
1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3
And this will we do, if God permit.

THE FIRST RESURRECTION AND THE THOUSAND YRS OF PARIDISE.


Revelation 20
4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


LIKE I SAID, CHRISTIANS MUST GET THIS HEAVEN IDEA FROM FATHER CHRISTMAS.

This is the hope of Christianity.

paul writes to encorrage those who have lost loved ones about the hope we have in jesus , notice he dosn`t encourage them by saying its o.k. he was a christian , he`s gone to heaven, notice there still in the grave when jesus returns to raise them.(and that hasn`t happened yet.).so obviously for 2000 years thay wern`t with jesus because he didn`t bring them with him, he was coming to get them.

1 Thessalonians 2
13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now the apostle paul needed to explain to the thesalonians that jesus was not returning in there generation as some had miss understood the previous letter he had written to them and explains that first there ned come a falling away first(of the roman empire) and the man of sin must then rule until Christ takes him out of the way on his return (this is the papacy rain)

The papacy rain is called the apostate age by the prophets so no wonder Christianity is deluded so bad. Roman catholasisim has ruled the European world now for 1600 yrs and are loosing there touch (probably until the next pope and he will sparke things write up and take control again. He is probably the anti-christ.)

Read the whole chapter if your interested in the fact that the antichrist is a false Christ not a Hitler.

2 Thessalonians 2
1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Now look at what jesus says to them when thay want to no were he`s going.

John 14
1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is from the old testament and also talks about raising from the dust (nothing about heaven hear either.)

Daniel 12
1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

13
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest,(R.I.P.) and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


Isaiah 26
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21
For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain
.

These are old testament prophecys about this paridise that jesus will rule for 1000 yrs when he returns.(still no sign of going to heaven.)

Isaiah 11
1
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3
And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5
And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isaiah 2
1
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5
O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.
But this peace comes

after much destruction done by jesus at his return , both old and new.
ISAIAH 66
15
For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Matthew 24
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Isaiah 24
1
Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2
And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3
The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4
The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
7
The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
8
The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
9
They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
10
The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
11
There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
12
In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.
13
When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.
14
They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.
15
Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.
16
From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17
Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18
And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19
The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20
The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22
And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23
Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

This is at the very end (after judgment day)
ISAIAH 66
17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

16
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
17
For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.
18
Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
19
The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20
Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21
Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22
A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

Isaiah 25

6
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9
And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation

Revelation 21
1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

SO FAR NON OF THIS SAYS WE GO TO HEAVEN.
The times it dose mention heaven it is in one of those contexts I gave earlier about heaven.when it talks about angels in and coming out of heaven it is obviously talking about the sky, the stars and the planets, look at this.


Jude 1
6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Matthew 24
31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thessalonians 1
7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

Acts 1
9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

NOW TO LOOK AT A SCRIPTURE THAT DOSE SEEM TO SUGGEST WE GO TO HEAVEN WHEN WE DIE!

First:
The thief on the cross with jesus.

Luke 23
39
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Look at this verce , this is one of few scriptures that ignorant christians use to believe when you die you go to heaven.

43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now , a couple of points about this verse:
1. notice it says paradise not heaven.
2. notice the thief said remember me when you come into your kingdom(not when you get to heaven)
3. if you no greek writing then you will no that it dose not use comers and fullstops. So the commars are put in by interpreters. So what dose it read if we change a comma.


43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

This has to be the way it reads because jesus died soon after that but the thief didn`t die that day that is why thay broke his legs with the other thief(so thay couldn`t escape) but thay didn`t brake jesus legs because he was already dead. Besides the thief said to remember him WHEN he came into his kingdom.(not when he gets to heaven).


When jesus rose from the dead he stated that he was not yet assended to his father(so if you go to heaven when you die were was jesus for 3 days (in the grave, christians try to say he went to hell but hell just means the grave).

John 20
17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This is another scripture that christians say means when we die we go strait to heaven?????

Matthew 22
31
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33
And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine


The problem is thay fail to read v 31.( as touching the resurrection of the dead).
This is talking about god raising the dead to not going to heaven again.

Mark says it better(And as touching the dead, that they riseJ)

Mark 12
25
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Now for a duzzy

LUKE 16
19
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

First notice lazaress is not in heaven but abrahams bosom.
Maby this rest(sleep) in Christ until he returns and raises the dead is like going to sleep at night , you fall asleep and then awaken at the resurrection so what if its like sleeping, if your at peace when you die you rest in peace and if you die restless you are restless until the judgment and damnation.this would explain this parable .
OR
From what I make of this if we were to take it litrally it would not fit into the whole context of the bible ,so , keeping this in mind and the fact that jesus always spoke in parables and this was definatly one of those parables then we would need to look at the point of the parable to see what jesus was saying which was:

30
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I believe his point was that evan if one rose from the dead (like jesus was about to do)thay wouldn`t believe .
Believe what:
that in the next life there will be much torment for the wicked and it`s not worth waiting until you die to find this out

this was a major concern for jesus as most of his parables were along this line (trying to make the same point ).
Which was judgment and then damnation so jesus always spoke in parables to warn people to avoid entering damnation at the judgment, jesus even layed his life down in the hope that more people would turn from this destiny
And have life.

There is another scripture that christians have used to clam that theres life strait after death:

The transfiguration on the mount with jesus , peter , james and jpnh.

Matthew 17
1
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.


Now , first Elijah, well Elijah never died any way so that would explain why he could return and talk to jesus on the mount.
But you got to ask your self with this story if we are dealing with aliens and ufo`s because things get realy bizzar.

If someone was to explain a UFO encounter 2500 yrs ago how would thay describe it.lets speculate, thay only new of chariots to describe a vehicle or fire for lights or a whirlwind for noisy motors that blow around (e.g. helicopter).now see what happens to Elijah keeping in mind this man carried a staff like moses and did wonders with it. Check this out:

2 Kings 2
10
And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12
And Elisha saw it, and he cried my father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.


So maby Elijah hags with jesus mates, out there.

Now there has been two others taken up to heaven(into the heavens) in the bible .
1. was enoch. = so if it was moses and not enoch with Elijah then it maby this is what happened.
Genesis 5
22
And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


2.the other is moses(believe it or not) althou he was dead by the time the archangel came and took his body if god rose jesus why couldn`t he (or enoch`s mate`s) raise moses , or why bother taking his body into space if he couldn`t be raised.
Chack this out.
Jude 1

9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

EITHER WAY IF WE GO TO HEAVEN OR HELL WHEN WE DIE FOR REAL THEN THE BIBLE IS WRONG IN SO MANY WAYS, BUT IF WE DON`T AND IT`S THE RESURECTION AND JUDGMENT THAT WE WAIT FOR THEN THERE IS SOME EXPLANATION FOR JUST A COUPLE OF SCRIPTURES THAT SUGGEST OTHEWISE.
I`ve covered every scripture that supports the heaven and hell theory, I think(exept samual and soul , but I`m to tired now, I`ll leave that out), but I haven`t even begun with those concerning the resurrection and the judgment.

Theres plenty more off those ,you want to see them to,lol.
 
Old 07-06-2001, 07:48 PM   #27
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Wow that was really nice reading. I guess most Christian only pick the lines that they are satisfied with.

Thanks for your reply.
 
Old 07-07-2001, 02:59 AM   #28
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Interesting stuff I'm sure Truthseekar, but some of it concerns me a little.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Christian heaven = when we die we go strait to heaven if you’re a Christian and strait to hell if your not (I can prove the bible dose not say this at all either).</font>
Interesting that I am a Christian and believe in heaven (and therefore believe in "Christian heaven"?) but don't believe anything like what you describe here.
In fact I find myself nodding along to what you say is the Biblical view (plus or minus a few minor details), so you must forgive me for being rather surprised when you start implying/stating that this is not what Christians believe.

Are you aware of the differing millenial views - as you don't seem to mention them at all?
 
Old 07-13-2001, 04:50 AM   #29
truthseekar
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Location: Perth,W.A.,Aust
Posts: 22
Cool

Tersel,
In general I find Christians don’t understand this issue of heaven, unless you’re a Christian that reads the bible extensively that is.
.
So, let me see if I understand you:
You believe in this heaven in the spiritual realm and you believe jesus will take you there for a thousand years after he returns .do I have this wrong, if I do could you elaborate abit more on your last post, I’d be interested.

Quote: tersel
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you aware of the differing millennial views - as you don't seem to mention them at all?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I`m not a traditional Christian so I don’t understand your terminology. Allthough I am a Christian and have read and study the bible extensively and apocryphal books so if you elaborate on this questian using biblical vocabulary I would understand better. Because this statement makes me think of several things in the bible, relating to biblical numerology.

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