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Old 03-27-2001, 03:56 PM   #11
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by John the Atheist:
What does this mean to you: Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face: That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto they Father which is in secret: and they Father which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly. Matt 6:16-18 Wasn’t he talking to his followers? Sounds like he was laying guidelines on how to fast here. Even though some fasted so much that they disfigured their faces, he said until them that they would have their reward, but he preferred for it to be in secret. There are quite a few scriptures that deal with fasting.

In Acts it says this:

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then after fasting and praying they laid their hand on them and sent them off.” (Acts 13:2-3) NRV

So the Holy Spirit appeared while they were fasting. I’ve been there myself in my youth, and know it doesn’t take but about a week or two before one often does start hallucinating. I also know many of my Christian friends who practice fasting on a regular basis, and although they prefer to say it is a spirit, while I call it hallucinating, they see visions all of the time. In Matthew, Jesus tells his followers, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. Matt 17:20-21 KJV Let me fast for a few weeks, and I’ll move that mountain too.


John
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The reference to Matthew 6 is from the Sermon on the Mount, it was a public address. It is clear from Matthew 9:14-15, that Jesus' disciples did not fast during his ministry (i.e.-when the miracles we have been talking about occurred):

"Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast often but Your disciples do not fast?" And Jesus said to them, "Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast."

You are correct, that after the ascension, the disciples did begin fasting, in accord with Jesus' previous statements.

Additionally, it is apparent that fasting was common among many other Jews, without the corresponding reports of miracles and resurrections. Even other self-claimed messiahs who promised miracles, and whose followers fasted, failed to report any miracles by their leaders. And, when they died, they stayed dead. No reports of resurrection.

So. We have a situation, on the one hand, where Jesus' disciples were known for NOT fasting and the Daosists were known FOR experimenting with chemicals. Moreover, even though other Jews fasted and followed self-proclaimed messiahs, they did not report any miracles by those failed messiahs (much less a resurrection). On the other hands, it seems that most of the claims for turning lead to gold arose from those who experimented with various drugs. And finally, I don't think the two are comparable. An alchemist who uses himself as a test subject to ingest heavy metals, or fasting. I will say that I have fasted many times, and never hallucinated anything.
 
Old 03-27-2001, 03:58 PM   #12
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by John the Atheist:
Turtonm, I enjoyed your feature essay too. You’re a good writer, and it takes a lot of guts to put a featured essay on the web, and also be around to have it critiqued.

John
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I too am glad that Turton stood his ground and offered a thorough explanation of his evidence. However, if we are giving medals for bravery, how about giving me one for putting up a post titled, "Jesus, the Miracle-Worker" on the SECWeb!



[This message has been edited by Layman (edited March 27, 2001).]
 
Old 03-27-2001, 06:09 PM   #13
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Thanks for the write, Layman. Just a couple of more points, and I think I’ll be done. Thanks for keeping it short. I’ll do the same.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Layman:
The reference to Matthew 6 is from the Sermon on the Mount, it was a public address. It is clear from Matthew 9:14-15, that Jesus' disciples did not fast during his ministry (i.e.-when the miracles we have been talking about occurred):</font>
You said in your earlier post that it was specific that his followers didn‘t fast. Do you want to limit it to just his immediate disciples, and only after the ascension?

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Even other self-claimed messiahs who promised miracles, and whose followers fasted, failed to report any miracles by their leaders. And, when they died, they stayed dead. No reports of resurrection.</font>
There are many that report miracles by their leaders, as well as reports of resurrections. Comparative religions cover many. Another time for it.

You mention that you have fasted and haven’t experienced any hallucinations. If it goes on long enough, along with sleep deprivation, it would be unusual not to. I don’t think that all miracles need necessarily be attributed to fasting or sleep deprivation though. Even a good skilled faith-healer today, can give us a hint of what can be done just through working a crowd up into hysteria, and by using suggestion, and other psychological factors being involved. How much of a role do you think magic played in some of Jesus‘ miracles? I’m a little rusty now, but I used to have about a dozen or so sleight of hand routines as well as some illusions that probably not 1/1000 could tell what I was doing. I’m sure they realize that nothing supernatural was going on, and that is was just that; sleight of hand or an illusion or trick of sorts. But do you think in that day and age they were as critical? Is there any early church father who didn’t believe in magic? Do you think it is important to know the mindset of the people back then, and what other things they believed in?

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I roo am glad that Turton stood his ground and offered a thorough explanation of his evidence. However, if we are giving medals for bravery, how about giving me one for putting up a post titled, "Jesus, the Miracle-Worker" on the SECWeb!</font>
“No my son, you will not get your reward here in this wicked world. You will get your reward in the other life. I rebuke you Satan! Patience, if you want to see the Kingdom of Heaven!” -- Jehovah, (aka, Yaweh, God, Jesus, The Big Enchilada)

John


 
Old 03-27-2001, 06:56 PM   #14
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"You said in your earlier post that it was specific that his followers didn‘t fast. Do you want to limit it to just his immediate disciples, and only after the ascension?"

I will clarify that by "followers" I meant disciples (although not just the twelve). I would not classify the audiences that turned out for his sermons or miracles as "followers." And I will take you up on your offer to limit it until after the ascension. Given the importance of fasting in the Catholic and Protestant churches, I assumed that would be obvious. I should not have so assumed. And please remember the context of the reference. I was responding to the accusation that somehow the self-beating and fasting of Jesus' followers was somehow comparable to the experimentation with drugs and elixers as the Daosts confessed to.

"There are many that report miracles by their leaders, as well as reports of resurrections. Comparative religions cover many. Another time for it."

Of course. However, we were discussing the criteria of dissimilarity. I suggest that you review my Jesus, the Miracle-Worker post and accompanying thread. Turton's article was intended to use those same tools to show that my evidence meant nothing. My response was that he had failed to use a number of crucial criteria that I employed: independence, dissimilarity, and embarrassment.

"You mention that you have fasted and haven't experienced any hallucinations. If it goes on long enough, along with sleep deprivation, it would be unusual not to. I don't think that all miracles need necessarily be attributed to fasting or sleep deprivation though. Even a good skilled faith-healer today, can give us a hint of what can be done just through working a crowd up into hysteria, and by using suggestion, and other psychological factors being involved. How much of a role do you think magic played in some of Jesus‘ miracles? I'm a little rusty now, but I used to have about a dozen or so sleight of hand routines as well as some illusions that probably not 1/1000 could tell what I was doing. I'm sure they realize that nothing supernatural was going on, and that is was just that; sleight of hand or an illusion or trick of sorts. But do you think in that day and age they were as critical? Is there any early church father who didn't believe in magic? Do you think it is important to know the mindset of the people back then, and what other things they believed in?"

Sleep deprivation is something that no one had alleged until now. Where do you find evidence for that being a common practice among Jesus' disciples? However, I will concede, of course, that sleep deprivation leads to hallucinations whether you have been fasting or not. In fact, I remember some very vivid hallucinations I had on my third day without sleep. But, I had been eating and drinking regularly.

The comparison of Jesus to a faith-healer or magician are interesting and require further discussion. And you are wise to consider the mindset of the people "back then." As I discussed above, this is exactly what the criteria of dissimilarity does take into account. There weren't any faith-healers or magicians in Palestine during Jesus' time.

"No my son, you will not get your reward here in this wicked world. You will get your reward in the other life. I rebuke you Satan! Patience, if you want to see the Kingdom of Heaven! -- Jehovah, (aka, Yaweh, God, Jesus, The Big Enchilada)"

LOL.

Good one.
 
Old 03-28-2001, 08:53 AM   #15
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Layman, thanks, for the clarification concerning what you meant by followers. Also sleep deprivation wasn‘t something I was asserting for Jesus disciples, I was only relating from my own personal experiences. Although I‘m sure many of his disciples did have their moments where they did go with lack of sleep, like most human beings do in their lifetime, and I feel like in that day and time, they would have been more inclined to possible treat it as something else other than a hallucination when they experienced such.

This miracle worker board is probably a bit large for me to be getting in on right now, and I don’t have time to play catch up right now, but I definitely want to take you up on a future board when both of our times permit concerning this:

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The comparison of Jesus to a faith-healer or magician are interesting and require further discussion. And you are wise to consider the mindset of the people "back then." As I discussed above, this is exactly what the criteria of dissimilarity does take into account. There weren't any faith-healers or magicians in Palestine during Jesus' time.</font>
Concerning your last statement, I don’t know how you can make such a claim. None whatsoever? I would like to concentrate on this as well as Jesus being a magician and faith-healer. It’ll probably be a couple of months before I can get to it, because I want a very detailed discussion on it, and my time is limited right now. I'm expanding my business, and it requires work outside, and I want to take advantage of the nice spring weather while it lasts before the Texas heat gets hotter than a Christian's Hell. I think there is enough evidence not only in the bible, but early church fathers admissions, magical papyrus fragments and documents that did manage to keep from being destroyed, to show Jesus was both.

Until then, John

 
Old 03-28-2001, 05:53 PM   #16
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Layman:
The comparison of Jesus to a faith-healer or magician are interesting and require further discussion. And you are wise to consider the mindset of the people "back then." As I discussed above, this is exactly what the criteria of dissimilarity does take into account. There weren't any faith-healers or magicians in Palestine during Jesus' time.</font>
I just noticed this since John pointed it out. I recall hearing, while I was a Christian, from a Christian source, that it is known that a large number of would be Messiahs were all over Israel at the time of Jesus. I will have to do some hunting around to see if I can find any sort of backing for this vague memory.

 
Old 03-28-2001, 06:22 PM   #17
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by daemon23:
Quote:
Originally posted by Layman:
The comparison of Jesus to a faith-healer or magician are interesting and require further discussion. And you are wise to consider the mindset of the people "back then." As I discussed above, this is exactly what the criteria of dissimilarity does take into account. There weren't any faith-healers or magicians in Palestine during Jesus' time.</font>
I just noticed this since John pointed it out. I recall hearing, while I was a Christian, from a Christian source, that it is known that a large number of would be Messiahs were all over Israel at the time of Jesus. I will have to do some hunting around to see if I can find any sort of backing for this vague memory.
Yes, I have mentioned some of them in previous posts. The difference is, that although some of those would-be messiahs claimed they would or could perform miracles, no one ever reported that they indeed DID perform miracles. Additionally, when the other purported messiahs died, their followers took that to mean that he was a false messiah. When Jesus died, his followers reported that he had conquered death and was the true messiah.
 
Old 03-28-2001, 08:36 PM   #18
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You guys are really reaching, but I admire creative thinking.

We know; we've read your posts.
 
Old 03-28-2001, 09:00 PM   #19
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Omnedon1:
You guys are really reaching, but I admire creative thinking.

We know; we've read your posts.
</font>
Nice gratuitous slam. Not that I mind, it brings the response back up to the top.
 
 

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