FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Biblical Criticism - 2001
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 05:55 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-30-2001, 01:05 AM   #1
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post Sin?

Many theists will argue that humans are born with orginal sin. This sin of course coming from the very first sin of adam and eve pulling a no no and eating the apple. So no matter how good a person is, they still have this orginal sin hanging over their shoulders.

This brings me to my question. Was not Jesus a man? He may have been a good person, and committed no sins on his own, but this shouldn't matter, because he still has the orginal sin hanging over him since he was human. If jesus was indeed free from the orginal sin, then he should have been more like adam and eve before sin, meaning that he would not feel pain or experince death. This of course because pain and death are caused by the orginal sin. But as everyone knows, he did feel pain and died during the crucifixtion.

So if Jesus did indeed carry the same orginal sin as all humans, then you could not really say he was without sin. A thiest might be able to get around this by saying that Jesus was not really a man, but just a God in human form. But if this is true, then his sacrafice is cheapened. He would just be able to will the pain away, and only spilt blood because he wanted it appear (seeing as how gods don't bleed).

 
Old 04-30-2001, 10:56 AM   #2
Lance
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Overland Park, KS USA
Posts: 335
Question

Two real different issues here:

First, the easiest. If Jesus was in any way more than human, his so-called sacrifice was just that--a sham. Particularly when it would appear from the gospels that he knew he was coming back. So why the fret? Why that dramatic garden scene? Heck, if he really was vanquishing death and sin, the man should have been having a damn party and not out in some garden sweating blood--literally.

Original sin--this is the snake oil any theist uses to hook their sucker. That no matter how good you are as a person...you have a fault that only THEIR product, Jesus in this case, can fix.

Or lets put it in a human perspective. Assume you have children and your eldest son is a bit of pill growing up, but he manages it without fatal harm, marries, has kids, and becomes a generally good person.

Would it make sense for you as a grandparent to take their kid and punish it for something the father did while young?

Or if you want to get even closer to a real analogy, make it a great-grand. For example, my eldest daughter will be having our grandson in June. Would it make any kind of ethical sense for my mom (the kids great grandmother) to punish the tyke for something I did?

That is what original sin really is, with all the divine mysticism crap stripped away. It is simply a way to assign a guilt trip that there is no escape from without blind belief. Because no matter how good a person you really are--works don't cut it. Only blind, stupid, unreasoning faith will.
Lance is offline  
Old 04-30-2001, 11:11 AM   #3
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

But you see, that is my point.

If the theist will insist that all human beings are burdened with orginal sin, then must not this apply to Jesus as well since he was also human?

Personally I think orginal sin is pure BS, but I am just trying to get into the mind of a thiest.
 
Old 05-03-2001, 11:24 PM   #4
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

First of all, I think you are missing a big point. Regardless of whether or not you think we are all condemned because of the original sin, we "all sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 That means that we all (myself included) have knowingly and willingly done something wrong. That alone is enough to send us to Hell. My guess is that you will immediately raise the question of "what about people who have never read the Bible?" To answer that question I would respond that we all to some extent know right from wrong. There has never been a culture in any part of the world where it has been considered good to lie, steal, murder, or betray a friend. We all have consciences and we all know that it is wrong to do these things. But check out the link I included at the bottom, it can probably say it better than I can.

But to answer your question. I don't think I can directly explain what original sin is, but I can give you a clear example of it. We are a corrupt race because of our sinful nature, which we inherrited. How do we know it is inherrited? Think about a young child. We have to teach children to share, not to hit each other, and that its wrong to lie. Even in strong families where there is no TV and the parents never lie or hit each other, the child still has the natural urge to do these things. It is something that is a part of us from when we are born. Check out http://www.comereason.org/cmp_rlgn/cmp040.htm for some more interesting stuff on sin. I hope this helps.

-Caleb
 
Old 05-03-2001, 11:50 PM   #5
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Good post going here... Since sin should pass to each human and Jesus falls into that group, dispite what the Bible says claiming he was without sin, lets get a list going of sins he did commit that are both documented in the Bible and maybe some that would be implied.
I can start this with...
1. He did dishonored his mother by telling her she was no longer his mother. (Now you know that had to have hurt poor Mary)
2. He did not forgive the money changers in front of the temples as the Bible instructs but instead, stole money (lost profits) by wrecking the place. Since the vendors lost sales etc, they could not render unto Caesar his taxes which the Bible comands.(ok that would be 3)
4. He hung around the sinners in the bar dispite what is instructed in Pauls writings.
5. He feed the multitudes on the mount with Magic fish and bread, thereby stealing business and taxes again from the locals and the Government.
6. He lied to his apostles by letting them believe he was coming back in their lifetime. Misleading someone is equal to a lie, (being a God he must have know they would understand it that way).

What eles?

[This message has been edited by critical thinking made ez (edited May 04, 2001).]
 
Old 05-04-2001, 08:31 AM   #6
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

He also sinned when he stayed behind in Jerusalem without his parents permission and caused them great consternation. When they did find him 3 days later, he made flippant remarks to his mother. The Bible even says that on the way home, Jesus became submissive to his parents, which implies he was first obstinent.

 
Old 05-04-2001, 09:03 AM   #7
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Well, at least in the Catholic church, it is taught that Mary was without original sin (the Immaculate Conception), so theoretically, God can make an exception for an individual. I would assume that this dispensation would also have applied to Jesus, but I can't tell you that I was explicitly taught that in confirmation class. Maybe the Immaculate Conception was like genetic therapy and allowed Jesus to inherit Mom's immunity?
 
Old 05-04-2001, 10:34 AM   #8
Lance
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Overland Park, KS USA
Posts: 335
Question

big d: If they were good and proper Jews, why didn't the follow the instructions in Leveticus and put the little bugger to death?

Do as I say, not as I do?

Caleb: Its called being a predator. Animals will exhibit the same tendancies. The only difference between us and them is our intelligence, which at least in some cases lets us see the consequences to a less than intelligent action.

"Original Sin" itself is nothing but a sales gimmick. Just like when a car manufacturer deliberately makes cars he knows will wear out in 10 years so they can sell another one, the concept of original sin was concocted by the priest cults to damn everyone universally. Regardless of how good, righteous, or whatever...you still need them.

Its a symbiotic relationship to forment a need for the priests and pastors. And Christians have swallowed it hook, line, sinker, fishing pole, and fisherman.

This is an asiatic viewpoint BTW. Read MM Mangasarian's excellent article on infidels for some insight into what I'm talking about.
Lance is offline  
Old 05-04-2001, 11:00 AM   #9
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

First off, original sin is a specifically Christian view, not a general theistic view; Judaism and Islam, for example, lack a belief in original sin.
 
Old 05-04-2001, 10:09 PM   #10
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by wonderbread:
Many theists will argue that humans are born with orginal sin. This sin of course coming from the very first sin of adam and eve pulling a no no and eating the apple. So no matter how good a person is, they still have this orginal sin hanging over their shoulders.

This brings me to my question. Was not Jesus a man? He may have been a good person, and committed no sins on his own, but this shouldn't matter, because he still has the orginal sin hanging over him since he was human. If jesus was indeed free from the orginal sin, then he should have been more like adam and eve before sin, meaning that he would not feel pain or experince death. This of course because pain and death are caused by the orginal sin. But as everyone knows, he did feel pain and died during the crucifixtion.

So if Jesus did indeed carry the same orginal sin as all humans, then you could not really say he was without sin. A thiest might be able to get around this by saying that Jesus was not really a man, but just a God in human form. But if this is true, then his sacrafice is cheapened. He would just be able to will the pain away, and only spilt blood because he wanted it appear (seeing as how gods don't bleed).

</font>
Original sin makes reference to us not being naked to wit when we are born. In Gen.2 they were naked and felt no shame and after eating from the tree of knowledge the were naked and felt shame. Our ego is what makes us aware and our conscious mind is our tree of knowledge.

Jesus was without sin because this name was given to him after the rebirth of Joseph the carpenter who "made many things" (as all carpenters do), and since all is created in sin, Joseph was a big sinner. Jesus bore the sins of his world that had been created by Joseph to the cross.

Jesus was without sin because he was set free from the law needed for the conviction of sin. Jesus was the new creation in Christ and all who are in Christ cannot sin (1Jn.3:9).

Amos
 
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:20 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.