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Old 05-22-2001, 07:43 AM   #91
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Here's a little glimmer of information I
found. I think this explains alot about
the tithe, huge church buildings, etc.
At least how it got started. I'd heard
something similar to this before, but it
more along the lines of regular church
buildings becoming "fashionable" after
Constantine made it the Chrisianity the
main religion and they had to do something
with all those pagan temples (unconfirmed).


Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
But Constantine immediately went beyond this declaration of religious neutrality and evinced an attitude of what is now called benevolent
neutrality. In the same year, 313, be exempted the Christian clergy from municipal offices. In the Roman administration these local functions,
so far from being paid, were extremely costly and onerous to the citizens who were compelled to discharge them, and there was a very
general attempt to evade them. Exemption was regarded as so valuable a privilege that the Christian clergy now discovered a remarkable
number of "vocations" to their body, and great disorder ensued in the municipal administration, I leave it to the Catholic historian Count
Beugnot ("Histoire de la destruction du paganismer" I, 78) to estimate the result:

The effect of this measure was soon felt. On all sides one saw crowds of people make for the churches who were moved not so much by conviction
as by the hope of reward; and this first favor granted to Christianity admitted to its bosom guilty passions which had hitherto been foreign to it,
passions which had speedy and pernicious consequences. The complaints of the municipal bodies and the disorder that followed in the
administration of the provinces soon compelled Constantine to modify the privilege.
</font>
Taken from this article:
http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...hapter_16.html

 
Old 05-22-2001, 08:57 AM   #92
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lance:
...

I understand completely that you had nothing to do with any of the last 2000 years of Christian attrocities. But you do belong to the organization (unlike SecWeb) and it might be a good idea to work to change it as the doctrines that drove those attrocities are still in place today.

I also remember watching some Senate hearings on CSPAN a while back...and they were focusing on the legal definition of conspiracy for some reason. Anyhow, the thing that struck me was this: "A person who joins an organization, knowing what the organization is, inherits culpability for prior crimes by that organization."

To put it in simple terms, if you join a Mafia family, you are legally responsible as well for their past crimes.

Now how does this apply to Christianity? Well...the history of the church is well known. It is an organization that does indeed have a level of control over its members lives...in fact thats one of the claimed principle benefits. Since you know the crimes and its past, technically under that definition, you're still responsible for them.

Now how does SecWeb differ? Well...for starters there's no organization. None, zippo, nada. We have no heirachy, no pope, no bishop making policy. We don't even really have property to speak of. And if you want to try and tie atheism to Stalin (the favorite strawman), it won't fly as there is no grand pubah of atheism. Its a belief system versus an organization.

Now lets put the Indian/Conquistador issue to rest. Basically these people that came to our shores were hostile invaders. Moral? Hell no. Ethical? Nope. Polite? Not hardly. In most cases the invaders were welcomed with open arms and then took everything. And when the Indians/Aztecs/Mayans/et al had the audacity to object, slaughtered. Sure they got some back in self defense, but it was the Indian equivalent of Custers last stand. They were going down, probably by that time knew it, and wanted to take as much of the baddies down with them. And you can't deny the root of Christianity in all of this.

...

Hope this helps clarify the issues here.
</font>
I'm fascinated by your brilliant legal mind Lance. Does that mean you are responsible for Vietnam? Slavery? The Mexican-American War? The deaths of all those Native Americans? Afterall, you are voluntarily a citizen of the United States, and therefore an inheritor of all of its crimes.

Perhaps you have renounced your citizenship?
Perhaps you never accepted U.S. citizenship? If so, do you hold all of your U.S. citizen friends here on the SecWeb accountable for all of the crimes of the United States? Are all citizens of Texas responsible for slavery? The Civil War?

Are all citizens of Ohio responsible for the Kent State massacre? Perhaps just all members of the National Guard?

Speaking of which, are all members of the U.S. Armed Forces resposnible for the autrocities committed in Veitnam? The discrimination against African Americans in their past?

Of course, Christianity is a belief system with many different organizations, not one organization itself. Many of those organizations have negative history, many do not. My church, for example, only has about a 20 year history because we are nondenominational. We've killed no Indians, oppressed no peasants, nor burned any heretics.
 
Old 05-22-2001, 09:51 PM   #93
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ish:
If you label Christianity by its "bad apples", then you have to paint other groups the same way. If a member of the SecWeb steals from someone, we wouldn't blame the SecWeb... Surely, you understand this?

Ish
</font>
You would blame the SecWeb Group if they taught to steal and instructed the group or many individuals to steal. This is what the church did. Did you ever hear about the Crusades? This wasn't one wild hair person, this was the Church.

I know... you will now claim that was in the past and you are no longer killing, raping, and burning villages to spread Christianity. Now you do it at just the Threat of eternal damnation and hell fire. But at least no deaths right?... Wrong!

Now your churches and doctrine are dumbing down every country you bring your anti-science, anti-medicine, cult to. By your refusal to accept the fact of science and medicine, you go on killing indirectly millions of people in all countries around the world.

You allow the sick and diseased to continue in their suffering because your leaders have determined what is allowable in the mix of cloning and spiritual matters.

Look at the block the Church is putting up against Stem Cell research, which have proved to be the greatest discovery since penicillin. You support these causes and are directly responsible for the deaths and ongoing sickness associated with your church's ignorance.

You refuse to see the damage the Church is still doing... I have seen it first hand and not afraid to put the blame squarely on your back. If there is a God...you will be the one in trouble.

The other large area of murder the Church continues in, is the false Hope and lies they push the church members themselves into by claiming God can Heal people who show faith. Most of these poor xians show their faith by stopping other medical treatments that can really save their lives. You are Murdering People with this ignorance. If I know you have cancer and could get treatment and I purpose that you stop all treatment and rub my big toe and you will be healed, yet you die...I am responsible for that death...the Church is responsible for millions today. Donít' think your church sanctioned murders stopped in the Dark Ages... they are alive and well today.

I will understand if you don't answer this, it is not directed at you but to All Christians in general. I'm sure you are a nice person, just not mature in understanding what destructive powers a large group can have against the masses while candy coating it so everyone goes along. You think the church is just a great big, well meaning, group of individuals trying to correct the rest of the world heathen ways. The Church is the heathen, your leaders are to blame, the members are just ignorant and willing to sacrifice.



[This message has been edited by critical thinking made ez (edited May 22, 2001).]
 
Old 05-23-2001, 02:36 PM   #94
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Ok, nothing else of interest to me is going on at the moment, so I'll make one last response.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
You would blame the SecWeb Group if they taught to steal and instructed the group or many individuals to steal.</font>
Right, but did you read the questions that Layman posted above? Should Vietnam hold you personally responsible for some war crimes committed by a group of American soldiers who didn't live up to our standards for prisoners of war? Should I hold you personally responsible for any quirky, underhanded dealings of the Democratic party simply because you are an American and the Democrats are Americans?

CTME, I would hope that most people on these boards (Christian or not) understand this, but maybe not. Should the rest of the Atheists on the SecWeb each be held personally responsible for your opinions? Since I believe you are an Atheist, should I hold you personally responsible if another person who claims to be an Atheist (how can I tell, right?) mugs me?

It's almost cliche now, but obviously there are also "fundamentalist atheists"...

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
This is what the church did. Did you ever hear about the Crusades? This wasn't one wild hair person, this was the Church.</font>
Again, this was a part of the church. I know about the Crusades. As far as I know, there was a schism between the church at this time (East & West), so it's hard to say "what the church did" (which church? East or West?). Do the actions of the west (mainly France) speak for the whole (even the East)? I do not think so.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
I know... you will now claim that was in the past and you are no longer killing, raping, and burning villages to spread Christianity. Now you do it at just the Threat of eternal damnation and hell fire. But at least no deaths right?... Wrong!</font>
I'm glad you later say that you are talking to Christians in general, because none of these evil things have anything to do with Christians I know today. People who call themselves Christian and do these things do need to be reprimanded, just like anyone who does these kinds of things.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
Now your churches and doctrine are dumbing down every country you bring your anti-science, anti-medicine, cult to. By your refusal to accept the fact of science and medicine, you go on killing indirectly millions of people in all countries around the world.</font>
Again, if there are Christians dumbing down science, etc., then I implore them to stop doing this.

I, personally, am an Engineer with a belief in the good of science. Since I believe God to be behind everything, scientific findings do not bother me in the least. I doubt that we will ever know anything about God's existence or non-existence through science, so teach away.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
You allow the sick and diseased to continue in their suffering because your leaders have determined what is allowable in the mix of cloning and spiritual matters.</font>
No. I heartily disagree. The American people decide these issues.

I still don't see how you can say that we allow the sick and diseased to continue in their suffering after all the activities that I've mentioned the church being actively involved in. Is there are point in ignoring the good stuff? Propaganda perhaps? Are you still taking some small church that did something questionable in your opinion and holding the whole accountable? Why, why, why? Please stop ignoring the good that people do, or you might find that you discourage them to the point of stopping. Then what good has your rhetoric against the church done but fill the world with selfish people?

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
Look at the block the Church is putting up against Stem Cell research, which have proved to be the greatest discovery since penicillin. You support these causes and are directly responsible for the deaths and ongoing sickness associated with your church's ignorance.</font>
You are talking about a good thing here and ignoring the bad. Of course this is a whole other topic, but you are talking about abortion. If abortions are going to be performed, then by all means at least try to salvage some good from it. However, I and many others do not condone the killing of an unborn baby. There are organizations set up all over our nation to help pregnant women with no place to turn. There are many who want children and can't have them. Adoption is the number one answer. There are also programs in place for women to leave babies at fire stations, etc., so they don't end up throwing them in dumpsters. Finally, there is new research that is finding a different source for obtaining stem cells other than from murdered babies. Every unborn child deserves a chance to live. So, who's wrong? Who is the one that doesn't care? It's not quite so black and white, is it?

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
You refuse to see the damage the Church is still doing... I have seen it first hand and not afraid to put the blame squarely on your back. If there is a God...you will be the one in trouble.</font>
I don't refuse to see "the damage". I don't see it. "The damage" is a type of rhetorical spin put of well-intentioned ideas. I have also seen bad ideas come from Christians, but each of us are individuals and the blame lies squarely with the individual. I have also know of non-theists who have done questionable things, but, CTME, I won't paint you with that brush.

I think you're right that God will look at how we've treated our fellow man, but whether I am in trouble or not is up to me individually. However, whether you believe yourself to be accountable to God or not, you are accountable to the people around you, so please help them regardless...

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
The other large area of murder the Church continues in, is the false Hope and lies they push the church members themselves into by claiming God can Heal people who show faith. Most of these poor xians show their faith by stopping other medical treatments that can really save their lives. You are Murdering People with this ignorance. If I know you have cancer and could get treatment and I purpose that you stop all treatment and rub my big toe and you will be healed, yet you die...I am responsible for that death...the Church is responsible for millions today. Don?t' think your church sanctioned murders stopped in the Dark Ages... they are alive and well today.</font>
I would like for you to possibly look at this issue from their minority perspective for a moment, CTME. Most, if not all, of these people know the consequences of not taking medicine. They have to realize that even people with faith have died. Probably the biggest difference (and what you don't understand) is that they believe God exists (you don't). Since they believe that God exists, then if they die, they will be with God. Since you can't prove to them that their God doesn't exist, how can you tell them that what they are doing is wrong?

Anyway, it seems that you're holding world-wide Christians accountable for a minority view again. Most Christians that I know do not think this way. I, personally, believe medicine is one of man's best inventions. I can't understand why people wouldn't think that God would want us to use it to help people. If I was ever to speak with someone in this situation, I would do everything in my power to convince them to take their medicine, but in the end, it's really up to them.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
I will understand if you don't answer this, it is not directed at you but to All Christians in general.</font>
Perhaps this is the reason for so much generalizing?

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
I'm sure you are a nice person, just not mature in understanding what destructive powers a large group can have against the masses while candy coating it so everyone goes along.</font>
Ok. Well, thanks for the half-compliment.

Obviously there are individuals and groups of individuals within Christianity (of past and present) who have done bad things. I, nor any Christian I know, condone them. You must understand that Jesus taught that we should "love our neighbors". Why then would I consider someone who wrongs their neighbor to be truly following Jesus? Why would I acknowledge this person as an example of Christianity? I wouldn't.

Similarly, can I claim to be an Atheist if I don't follow the basic tenets and cling to belief in a God? I can call myself an Atheist, but would I really be? I think you would say, "Obviously not!"

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CTME:
You think the church is just a great big, well meaning, group of individuals trying to correct the rest of the world heathen ways. The Church is the heathen, your leaders are to blame, the members are just ignorant and willing to sacrifice.</font>
The church is just a community of individuals, some good and some bad. Each one of these individuals, if they are to be judged, should be judged on their merits. Christianity and "The Church" are not the real point for me and most Christians. Jesus and his teachings of love, charity, and salvation for all are the real point.

Thanks,
Ish
 
 

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