Toto

Nomad only pretends to be level headed, as a lure to get secularists to think he has a case that they might accept if they thought about it long enough. But you will notice that he throws a lot of scientific terms into his arguments that he doesn't quite understand, and a lot of his arguments are based on logical fallacies. He depends on throwing such a volume of arguments at us that no one has time to track down every problem.

But if you push him far enough, the disguise drops off, and the anti-rational primitive in him reveals itself.

Gooch's dad

OK, Rodtoles and Nomad, if the Satan described in the OT is really the devil, the 'lord of evil', then why in the first couple chapters of Job is Satan talking to God?

He seems to be right there in God's presence, talking about his recent backpacking trip down on Earth, where he was walking around.

Doesn't Christian doctrine hold that God cannot tolerate evil in his presence? Isn't that why the atonement of Jesus is supposedly necessary to allow us sinners into God's presence?

If that is true, and Satan really is evil, then why is he right there talking to God in the book of Job?

Or were they using walkie-talkies?

-Kelly

Doc B.

Why would Jesus die for us to protect us if there was nothing to be protected from?

Honestly guys...

Toto

I can't tell if this is ironic. (You can't be sure of anything these days.) But I thought Christian doctrine was that Jesus died to protect us from God's wrath.

I long ago stopped trying to make sense of this.

excreationist

As Toto said, Jesus just died to save sinners from the wrath of God that they deserve.
Satan is just a metaphorical or actual being who leads people into sin. But remember that we inherited our sinful nature from Adam, so Satan is unnecessary for us to sin. Perhaps Satan was a literal being who tempted Adam and Eve, but many believe that there was no literal tempter. It isn't necessary at all for there to be a Satan being for sin to exist since sin is just disobedience to God. And it isn't necessary for Satan to exist for God to save us from his own judgement on disobedience.

Doc B. - if Satan literally exists and is totally evil, why did God seem so friendly towards him in Job? And the Gospels tell about the literal existence of evil spirits, and it wouldn't make sense to drive out evil spirits and talk to them and hear them talk back if they didn't literally exist. What is your opinion on evil spirits?

Nomad

Hello Emperor.

Just curious, but I looked and looked, and I did not see an argument being offered by you. I understand that ad hominem against Christians is seen as fair play here, so no worries. But did you actually have anything to contribute to this thread besides attacks on me? Or were you merely passing through?

Nomad

P.S. To Toto. Same questions for you.

ChadD

Q: If there exist evil entities, when would their existence result in a conflict for the Christian?
A: If they tempted you do do something.

Q: If 'they' tempted you to do something, what would that entail?
A: You would as usual: desire to take one action as opposed to, or more than another.

Q: How would you know that you had been tempted?
A: You wouldn't until your 'conscience' (as God abides with you) convicted you.

---------------------------------------------

Q: What if you encounter someone that you believe to be possessed by an evil spirit as it is spoken of in the Bible?
A: I have not and do not therefore know if or how I would conclude that an individual was possessed by an evil spirit.

Q: Assuming that you were in a situation where you somehow, came to be entirely convinced that there was an evil spirit possessing a person as it is spoken of in the Bible, what would you do?
A: Assuming that I am entirely convinced, I would deal with that person how I would deal with any other; conducting myself as my 'conscience' leads (as God abides with me), and confessing my sins as my conscience shows me them.
(If I in turn felt 'lead' to command it to come out in the name of Jesus Christ, by definition of 'lead', I would do so, and I acknowledge this as entirely possible)

[ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: ChadD ]

Gooch's dad

(bump)

Hello, Nomad? Scroll up a bit and see my question about Satan talking to God in the book of Job, please. I'm still curious how this can be harmonized with the rest of orthodox Christian doctrine. Thanks.

-Kelly

Emperor of the Universe

I didn't wish to attack you, you just made such actions quite tempting. Your statements were so false as to be downright humorous. We can discuss this here or start a different thread for them if you wish.

Toto

Hi Brian - I'm just trying to keep you busy here to limit the damage you inflict on the JM list. (Probably a hopeless task.) Since I'm not a liberal Christian, and clearly don't believe in Satan, I'm here for the entertainment value of watching Christians try to make sense out of their holy scriptures.