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Old 04-15-2001, 02:45 PM   #1
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Post Who is this Jesus? Is he risen?

Did anyone see the above named special by Dr. Kennedy on ABC around 11pm Central last night (of course only the Jesus Seminar gets prime time )?

It had many great scholars in it: Bruce Metzger (cool! I haven't seen him before), N.T. Wright, Paul L. Maier, Josh McDowell, John Dominic Crossan, Helmut Koester!, Dr. Levine, and many other good scholars.

Though obviously biased toward my worldviews, it was a breath of fresh air for me to see some more conservative scholars finally take to the air and show that the Jesus Seminar doesn't speak for all good scholars (even if the show had to be aired late).

Ish

P.S. - Happy Easter! Jesus is risen!

[This message has been edited by Ish (edited April 15, 2001).]
 
Old 04-15-2001, 03:35 PM   #2
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You consider Josh McDowell a "good scholar"?!!!!

And no, imo, he's as dead as a doornail.
 
Old 04-15-2001, 03:58 PM   #3
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DennisMcD, the others are much better than McDowell, but I was trying to be as complete and upfront as possible with the names.

Honestly, I'm not sure I yet understand the heavy criticism of McDowell's work. I have heard that there is a "refutation" of his two books. Could you point me to it, or give me some of the specific problems? Perhaps then I can check his work a little more thouroughly. I worry that the "refutation" of his work relies on some "spin" on the facts, but I'm not decided yet.

Just out of curiousity, what exactly is a doornail? And can it really be dead?

Ish
 
Old 04-15-2001, 04:03 PM   #4
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ish:
DennisMcD, the others are much better than McDowell, but I was trying to be as complete and upfront as possible with the names.

Honestly, I'm not sure I yet understand the heavy criticism of McDowell's work. I have heard that there is a "refutation" of his two books. Could you point me to it, or give me some of the specific problems? Perhaps then I can check his work a little more thouroughly. I worry that the "refutation" of his work relies on some "spin" on the facts, but I'm not decided yet.

Just out of curiousity, what exactly is a doornail? And can it really be dead?

Ish
</font>
Is this question about McDowell serious? There's a whole response to McDowell on this website, and many others. The man is a rank amatuer compared to the heavyweights listed next to him. They must have cringed to be in the same forum as J.M.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...f_lowder/jury/

Is where you can find the Infidels work, with links to the laughable Robert Turkel AKA JP Holding, one of the Christian Reich's leading comedians, and his rebuttal of Lowder et al.

Michael
 
Old 04-15-2001, 04:17 PM   #5
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turtonm, yes, it was a serious question. I have not read McDowell's stuff mainly because I have heard so much negative about him.

BTW, if you're wondering why several people have been down on you and rodahi lately, it's because of things like: "the laughable Robert Turkel AKA JP Holding", "leading comedians" and "Christian Reich". Maybe it's just light-hearted fun, but it doesn't come across that way. I've seen several posts about turning down the harsh rhetoric, and I think it's a good idea.

Anyway, thanks for the link, I'm very curious to find out what he's being criticised for so I can make up my own mind.

Back to the topic, did anyone see this special and if so, what did you think?

Ish

[This message has been edited by Ish (edited April 15, 2001).]
 
Old 04-15-2001, 04:43 PM   #6
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Ish --

I am aware that most of those on the list are serious scholars. Had you put anything in your post that indicated that you understand that, even among many Christians, McDowell is considered a joke of an apologist, I doubt I'd have said anything. Actually, I wish now I had seen it because, having read some of his material, I'd like to see what McDowell actually looks like (sort of the same impulse as slowing down to look at a crash).

In the meantime, I return your thread to you.
 
Old 04-15-2001, 04:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ish:
...Though obviously biased toward my worldviews, it was a breath of fresh air for me to see some more conservative scholars finally take to the air and show that the Jesus Seminar doesn't speak for all good scholars....</font>
Ish, Ish, Ish! What ARE we going to do with you? The Jesus Seminar DOES speak for "all good scholars" in that the Jesus Seminar also rightly recognizes that some of the words and deeds attributed to Jesus in the New Testament were never spoken or enacted by him .

The four gospels are not "biographies" in the modern sense; they are faith documents. Scholars have known this for nearly 300 years. It's time the public got on board here!

By the way, Josh McDowell is no more a scholar than Benny Hinn is a physician. He is a Christian apologist and a biblical literalist.

I thought the program was put together to answer the recent ABC special narrated by Peter Jennings, which gave viewers a small opening into what biblical scholars are discovering about Jesus in the context of his first-century world. Did you notice, Ish, that there were no unanswered questions brought to awareness throughout the program?To me this showed a bias towards the gospel accounts as CNN video instead of the powerful parables and fascinating historical windows that they are.




[This message has been edited by aikido7 (edited April 15, 2001).]
 
Old 04-15-2001, 05:07 PM   #8
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The discover channel has another on tonight at 8 & 12, 3 hours long.
 
Old 04-15-2001, 09:13 PM   #9
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Marduk, thanks! I'm watching it now.

Aikido7, I completely understand the Jesus Seminar and their agenda. I also understand what you are saying about them.

Yes, scholars have known that not all the words of Jesus can be exact. They come to us through the disciples. This does not mean that at least one of them didn't get the words right or at least close enough for government work.

The Jesus Seminar excises way too many words in an inconsistent fashion. They do not represent the views of all scholars because all scholars do not agree with their exclusions. Many scholars believe that though the words may not be exact, they are very close to what Jesus said. This is obvious by looking at the parallels. No, the words are not exactly the same, but they are close enough to get the same general idea across.

Finally, on the Josh McDowell issue. I'm trying to read the "refutation" of his work. However, I think the words being used against him are way to much. He may not be on par with the other scholars, but I doubt very much that his work is a joke. He is a very intelligent individual. Regardless, I'll check into the "problems" with his works.

Now I want to watch this special on the Discovery Channel.

Ish
 
Old 04-15-2001, 09:20 PM   #10
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FYI, you can apparently ask questions of James H. Charlesworth on discovery.com at the moment during the show mentioned by Marduck.

Ish
 
 

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