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Old 07-26-2001, 07:15 AM   #1
sighhswolf
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There is an interesting bit of Information
in the book of Matthew, that I have never really thought about until someone in another forum brought it up.

At the "Passover Seder" with the disciples,
Jesus tells Peter that before the night is over, he will deny Jesus 3 times.

Jesus seemed to be very distraught over this coming event

So, Jesus reportedly "prayed" that this "event", Peter's denial of Jesus not take place.

To whom, is Jesus pleading his case?
And how does this effect the concept of the "trinity"?
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Old 07-26-2001, 08:41 AM   #2
uncle_onion
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As an X JW I have seen alot of argueing go on about the trinity. At the end of the day you can make the bible say anything that you want it to say. Trinitarians have a lot of "proof" text and so do unitarians. They will still be argueing about it for a long time.

BTW where are the other forums that you mentioned please?

UO
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Old 07-26-2001, 09:46 AM   #3
Ron Garrett
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Let's look at the actual text in Luke 22

31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
33 But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death."
34 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

Jesus says he prayed for him that his faith wouldn't fail, not that the denial woudn't take place. But I interpret this as the prayer failed because Peter's faith did fail. But Jesus words anticipate this by saying "and when you have turned back."

I give no credence to prophetic utterances. These seem to be redactions putting words into Jesus' mouth by some Paulist for the point of weakening Peter's claim to the mantle of leadership.

As for whom Jesus was praying to he always said he was praying to the Father.

Consider:
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Doesn't seem very Trinitarian does it?

2000 years of apologetics still can't make the notion of the Trinity comprehensible as mono-Theism because it is not. It is Tri-Theism.

[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]
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Old 07-27-2001, 03:49 AM   #4
sighhswolf
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Quote:
Originally posted by uncle_onion:
<STRONG>As an X JW I have seen alot of argueing go on about the trinity. At the end of the day you can make the bible say anything that you want it to say. Trinitarians have a lot of "proof" text and so do unitarians. They will still be argueing about it for a long time.

BTW where are the other forums that you mentioned please?

UO</STRONG>
There is a EMail forum at YahooGroups.com
called We freethinkers. There are quite
a few ex JW's there.

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