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Old 05-05-2001, 07:27 PM   #51
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Poor trunks2k -- First he gets called a Christian on this thread, and then he gets called a lazy beer-drinkin' airhead. The hell?

Jaliet, were you trying to start a flamewar?
 
Old 05-06-2001, 04:03 AM   #52
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If anyone remembers (or cares), this thread was originally started to answer the question of how Jesus' death forgives us of our sins. Lets see what the Bible says. Check out http://bible.gospelcom.net/ if you don't have a Bible laying about. First we need to show the need for forgiveness.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
ROMANS 3:23

That means everybody. You, me, we all have willfully and consciously done what was wrong. Second, we need to examine why Jesus came to die for our sins.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life inn Christ Jesus our Lord.
ROMANS 6:23

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
ROMANS 5:6-8

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,n God made youn alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
COLOSSIANS 2:13-15

Now what did He do?

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
JOHN 3:16

Jesus came to Earth and suffered. He didn't come down here just hanging around with his friends. Jesus had a one-on-one temptation session with the devil (torture enough), then he was persecuted, mocked, beaten, whipped, stripped naked, betrayed by a friend, and deserted and disowned by all his other friends. Finally they stuck thorns into his head, drove spikes through his hands and feet, and made a public spectacle of Him. He went through every kind of temptation and humiliation. Even the two guys crucified with him insulted Him as he hung there dying. He gave up Heaven to come here and suffer, because He loves us so much.

So then how does it work? In the Old Testament, people had to sacrifice a lamb to God to be forgive of their sins. But it wasn't just any lamb, it had to be free from any blemishes or sicknesses. Now did these lambs have any power to forgive sin? No. The lamb foretells Jesus Christ. How? Jesus was "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." JOHN 1:29 Because Jesus was pure, he took our sins as his own.

RO 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

So why couldn't He have just forgiven us without a sacrifice? Among His other qualities God is good and just. Because he is good, he cannot bear evil. And because He is just, he cannot pretend it never happened. He cannot ignore His own laws. But God loves us and is merciful towards us. So He came to earth as a man to save us.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
ROMANS 8:1-4

So how does it end? Jesus died. But He physically rose from the dead. He went up to Heaven, but will come again. He will judge us, and if we accepted His sacrifice He will forgive our sins and bring us to Heaven. However, if we do not accept his free gift of life, we will be condemning ourselves to eternal torture and death in Hell.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people
HEBREWS 10:26-30

So what are you going to do?

then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve
JOSHUA 24:15
 
Old 05-06-2001, 04:12 AM   #53
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Monkeybot:
Poor trunks2k -- First he gets called a Christian on this thread, and then he gets called a lazy beer-drinkin' airhead. The hell?

Jaliet, were you trying to start a flamewar?
</font>
Monkeyboot,
You got me.
But even then, hes still an airhead -
How did Jesus' death save us my ass!

 
Old 05-06-2001, 04:51 AM   #54
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DRFseven:
Pretty bizarre response, Jaliet, to a perfectly legitimate question. It IS a strange concept that Christians and potential Christians are asked to believe. Why WOULD someone's tortured death result in others' salvation from death? I mean, if they could be saved by an agent independent from the crucifixion, why would the crucifixion be needed? And how would BELIEF that the person who was crucified died to save other people CAUSE the salvation to occur?

I used to know but can't remember anymore; something about God's willingness to sacrifice even his beloved son to a painful days-long agonizing death all to SHOW the ungrateful recipients of this bountiful mercy how loving he is. How DARE you, trunks2K, have a question about such a crystal clear concept as that! What an outrage that you asked such a thing! Jeez.

</font>
Ok, Ok. Flamewar aside. Sorry Trunks2k (what the hell kind of a name is that? - self deprecating?)
I asked the same question once - when I was thirteen or something. I got runarounds(you people here call it circular reasoning).
Its all about the concept of redemption: Quid pro quo made noble. It has origins (biblically) in the Ordinances Yahweh gave to Moses - if someones bull hurts another then the owner of the bull has to do sth to pacify the aggrieved party etc(forgive my sketchiness).
Now, Jesus, is meant to redeem us of our sins by his death. He is the Lamb of God that took away the sins of the earth. So we were given a second chance by Xst dying - we lost the first chance when Adam screwed up.
Now, in the OT days, the people offered sacrifices to God - during worship - chiefly calves meat and mutton. So the calves were a kind of "medium" by which they both pleased their God, at the same time - it was like a kind of penance. Jesus' death was meant to eliminate this. This is what most Christians say - especially Jehovah's Witnesses(so scared of blood!)
I obviously dont beleive this even for one tony second.
Why?
First: There were Partiachs - who went to what is called Heaven - Elijah, Moses etc. Jesus did not have to die.
Second: They say The only way for Salvation is through Xst - what about those who died before him and "feared" GOD?
Third - Its Circular reasoning - they say that Jesus is God - the word was there and the word was with God bla bla bla. If Jesus and God are one and the same. What about sweating Blood? What about "Father, please if it be possible, take this cup away from me"?, what about "Eloi, Eloi Lema sabablabla bla"?- If you needed to forgive someone. And you needed that person to pay a price in order to get your forgiveness. If the person could not pay the price - and hence get your forgiveness, there are three things that can happen: either you forgive him without the price, or you make him pay the price, or you dont forgive him.
There is no way in hell that you are going to take your own son, cut out his entrails and tell the other guy "Hey, I have sacrificed my son so that I may forgive you"
What about the Son? Doesnt he have a choice?
Cant there be a better way?
Furthermore, if the Son stands up, dusts himself casually and the wounds seal up - then no sacrifice took place: it was just a show. A demo.
Besides, we were not party to the sacrifice - we werent given any chance to face up to the sins we are accused to have been forgiven of - the so-called sacrifice was done - in a manner of speaking,"behind our backs". So, how are we expected to take it seriously? Dont we matter?, dont we need to be told by the knife wielding butcher - "do I do it"? If we dont matter, why sacrifice anything?
I think if anyone wants to sacrifice their own son, or if anyones son wants to commit suicide - its their business. It becomes our business if we are involved before the sacrifice. And if the person who dies cannot die - then there is no death, no suicide - no sacrifice.
So, either way, its irrelevant.
Besides, The concept of the "death and ressurection" of Jesus was built from older myths - like the Coffin Texts of Egypt that contain narrations of the Death and Rising of Osiris, The Sumerian Astra Hasis - have the same stories - Innana(one of the mesopotamian godesses) said "Who can escape from the underworld without paying a price?" the underworld/Apsu/what Genesis 1 calls the deep - was the earth and people(gods) could not go to heaven without a price. Consider the Sphinx...
Jesus had to die before rising back to heaven. Just like the Egyptian gog Osiris.
So again. Redemption my ass.
Its upon us to find out the real event that the death and resurrection of Jesus shrouds. It(the real event) happened before Jesus was "flung" from heaven. Before Genesis.
Like Alan Alford(The Return of The Gods) says
Let the Wise teach the Mystery to the Wise.
Trunks2k, you can ignore my posts all you want. You can flush your touchy adolescent ego down the toilet.
Punk!


 
Old 05-06-2001, 11:37 AM   #55
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Caleb:
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If anyone remembers (or cares), this thread was originally started to answer the question of how Jesus' death forgives us of our sins.</font>
No it wasn't. It was asking to explain the reasoning behind the cultural concept of blood sacrifice = salvation. Similarly, I could ask for the reasoning behind the concept of a Tarot card reading even though I entertain no notions of the truthfulness of such claims. Sometimes the reasoning behind such fantastic theories is interesting because it sheds light on how someone could believe such a thing.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So what are you going to do?</font>
Slowly shake my head in wonder and amazement at the intricacies of the belief systems of fellow humans.
 
Old 05-06-2001, 11:51 AM   #56
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Ok, Ok. Flamewar aside. Sorry Trunks2k (what the hell kind of a name is that? - self deprecating?)..[and]..Trunks2k, you can ignore my posts all you want. You can flush your touchy adolescent ego down the toilet.
Punk!</font>
That's right, Jaliet; show how mature and sincere one ought to be in a discussion such as this and what it's like NOT to have a "touchy adolescent ego." After all, you are certainly a model of mature, organized thought and as well as a person with NO issues.
 
Old 05-06-2001, 02:46 PM   #57
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by trunks2k:
...I was always told that Jesus died so he could take away our sins. How exactly does that work? </font>
It apparently works however we want it to. Literally "dying for mankind's sins" is a later meaning followers after the crucifixion affixed to Jesus' death. The Hebrew Temple in Jerusalem slaughtered the scapegoat lamb for Passover. Jesus--whether historically or otherwise--overturned the tables in the temple which showed one didn't really need religious mediators to assure one's wholeness before God.

After Jesus' death he became "the Lamb of God" who was slaughtered to appease God and take away sin. This idea is comes to full fruition in the Gospel of John--the last gospel to be written, the most highly developed theologically and the one most present-day believers hold as historical truth (although its historicity is far from certain).

There are other ancient Hebrew texts showing a ritual of scapegoating involving spitting one's sins on a goat, hitting it with reeds, and affixing a bit of cloth to its body before driving it out into the desert to die and expunge the tribal sins with its death. In this ancient story one can see many parallels with the passion accounts--especially in regard to the goading with reeds (the treatment of Jesus by Roman soldiers) and the cloth (his robe).
 
Old 05-06-2001, 06:17 PM   #58
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jaliet:

Ok, Ok. Flamewar aside. Sorry Trunks2k (what the hell kind of a name is that? - self deprecating?)

</font>
My name comes from a character, Trunks, on a classic Japanese animated show, Dragon Ball Z (I like animation, so sue me). Trunks is just a really cool character (and definatly NOT an airhead, he's rather brilliant) I added the "2k" because usually someone else uses the name "Trunks" plus it's just easier to have one screenname for all the sites I go to.
 
Old 05-07-2001, 07:18 AM   #59
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Amos,
“If from your perspective we are bastardized Jews ask yourself why the pupil here is far greated than its master. With all respect to Judaism have you ever wondered why this is so? You are correct to say that our protestant off shoots are bastardized idolizers.”

You are making an assumption that I BELIEVE Christianity to be “far greater” than it’s master (Judaism) and this would be an entirely INCORRECT assumption. Therefore, your proceeding question cannot be answered with anything other then NO!

It is, what I believe, an arrogant assumption of Christianity to believe in the same god, take bits and pieces of Judaism, twist and contort it to support a position developed AFTER the fact (death of Jesus) and claim a Judaic foundation when Christianity and it’s concepts are completely ignorant of the Judaic perspective.

If Christianity were able to claim an independent existence and not rely upon improper interpretation of Judaic prophecy, maybe it could be something other then an extremely poor imitation of it’s predecessor. But Christianity NEEDS Judaism in order to claim divinity and without this, it does not have a leg to stand on. Jesus would be nothing without his "Moshiach" claim.

I have asked this question to many a priest of varying denominations and each time I have been given an answer of total silence: If Jesus was a devout Jew (and this is not in dispute) then why is it that Christians do not study Torah, a devoutly as Jesus? I have further asked why is it that Christians are almost always completely ignorant of the things Jesus would have studied and the holidays he would have celebrated? Why is counting the Omar, Sukoh, Purim, Passover, etc. unimportant to the Christ emulator, when these things were a vastly important part of his life and perspective?

My answer has always been this: If Christianity was to study Torah as a Jew it would be impossible for Christianity continue to have a mental hold on it’s adherents because a Judaic (an proper translation of a Hebrew/Judaic text) shatters the “myths” of Messianic divinity.

How is it that Protestant faiths, who borrow bits and pieces of Catholicism, are considered by a Catholic to be bastardizations, when Catholicism does exactly the same thing with Judaism, but is some how “far greater than it’s master?”


Brighid
 
Old 05-07-2001, 09:13 PM   #60
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by brighid:
Amos,
“If from your perspective we are bastardized Jews ask yourself why the pupil here is far greated than its master. With all respect to Judaism have you ever wondered why this is so? You are correct to say that our protestant off shoots are bastardized idolizers.”

You are making an assumption that I BELIEVE Christianity to be “far greater” than it’s master (Judaism) and this would be an entirely INCORRECT assumption. Therefore, your proceeding question cannot be answered with anything other then NO!

It is, what I believe, an arrogant assumption of Christianity to believe in the same god, take bits and pieces of Judaism, twist and contort it to support a position developed AFTER the fact (death of Jesus) and claim a Judaic foundation when Christianity and it’s concepts are completely ignorant of the Judaic perspective.

If Christianity were able to claim an independent existence and not rely upon improper interpretation of Judaic prophecy, maybe it could be something other then an extremely poor imitation of it’s predecessor. But Christianity NEEDS Judaism in order to claim divinity and without this, it does not have a leg to stand on. Jesus would be nothing without his "Moshiach" claim.

I have asked this question to many a priest of varying denominations and each time I have been given an answer of total silence: If Jesus was a devout Jew (and this is not in dispute) then why is it that Christians do not study Torah, a devoutly as Jesus? I have further asked why is it that Christians are almost always completely ignorant of the things Jesus would have studied and the holidays he would have celebrated? Why is counting the Omar, Sukoh, Purim, Passover, etc. unimportant to the Christ emulator, when these things were a vastly important part of his life and perspective?

My answer has always been this: If Christianity was to study Torah as a Jew it would be impossible for Christianity continue to have a mental hold on it’s adherents because a Judaic (an proper translation of a Hebrew/Judaic text) shatters the “myths” of Messianic divinity.

How is it that Protestant faiths, who borrow bits and pieces of Catholicism, are considered by a Catholic to be bastardizations, when Catholicism does exactly the same thing with Judaism, but is some how “far greater than it’s master?”

Brighid
</font>
Hello Brighid and thanks for your reply.

There is much evidence that Catholicism is far greater than Judaism. Once again with all respect to Judaism as a true mystery religion wherein salvation can be found, the abundance of art created by Catholics is sufficient proof right there. Asher Lev is, or was, at one time believed the the equivalent of James Joyce and I do not see him even as comparable. Perhaps I made a poor choice here and will give credit to you for Einstein and Spinoza (one of my favorites). Do you know of any other great minds that were Jewish? To extent this train of thought to our 'lost brethren' there has never been a great mind among them nor will there ever be one because the mystery of salvation as it is known in Catholicism and Judaism is not known to them. In case you wonder, I am thinking here of the mind of God being the end of salvation . . . such as it was for Jesus the ex Jew. But yes I agree, Judaism is a beautiful religion but maybe a little sluggish and rigid. Perhaps you noticed by now that in my view "bible study" has nothing to do with salvation and is most often a hindrance to it (Jn.5:39-40).

Would it help if I told you that religion must serve as a means to an end, and that the end of religion would be to be freed from the bondage of slavery and sin? Notice that Judaic Law convicted Jesus-the-Jew (the Jews here) and that Pilate and Herod (civil law) found nothing wrong with "Jesus-the-man." This means that as a new religion, Catholicism only needed the "old law" for the conviction of sin. I should remind you here that the Laws were given to Moses for the conviction of sin and thus not to stop sin because, once again, the conviction of sin is needed for the salvation of man.

If this be true, since I doubt that you will believe me, we do not need the Divinity of Judaism because we have our own. We have Jesus Christ and the example set by him which we are to follow to the bitter end, and if we do, we will also experience our own resurrection, ascention, assumption and coronation, just as Jesus of Nazareth did. This makes the CC infallible (freedom in Christ) and thus in charge of its own destiny wherefore there are no temples in the New Jerusalem if and when each Catholic comes to his/her own salvation (freedom from slavery and sin, which, by the way, is a reality or salvation itself would be a hoax).

As I see it, the difference between Catholicism and Judaism is that Jews are mesmerized towards a desired end and Catholics can be followers of a leader towards this same end (salvation). It would be wrong for Catholics to get tangled up with Torah stuff because all we really need is 'a Law' and 'a flock' that makes this Law (moral code) known (written upon our heart as if in stone) to identify ourself as lost sheep from the flock (salvation is for sinners only). Do you not see that it would be impossible to wait for either the first or the second coming of Christ as if he is like a train in that we can always 'catch' the second one?

Sure, Jesus was a devout Jew and was born from an upright Jew who was earnestly looking for the reign of God but was also set free from the Law and Judaism with the release of Bar-abbbas (there is a lot more to this story but I will spare you the details for now).

So yes, a new religion with the same end and much more prolific (this makes the desert smaller and the communion of the saints much greater).

Our protestant brethren are (I noticed you wrote "a Catholic") idolizers because they worship the "ideal" of salvation. No mystery, just sola scriptura: "and damned be him who cries hold enough" as Macbeth put it who therefore died like an iron fool instead of a Roman fool. They are bastardized because they can and will claim apostolic succession on the anthema side of the Church. They are not very smart because they fortified that which the Catholic Church called abominations or fornications or tragedies (Senecan Tragedies as opposed to Divine Comedies).

Amos

 
 

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