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Old 04-20-2001, 02:33 AM   #21
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PhysicsGuy:
Just contemplate quantum mechanics, the nature of conciousness, and the Big Bang for a while and you'll realize that most people are complete idiots when it comes to comprehending reality. We all go through life ignorant of the basic processes of our mind yet completely arrogant about how we know everything and everyone else is stupid. Don't you think that the tendency to see everyone who disagrees with you as being stupid is simply an innate characteristic of our brains?</font>
Would that compare to your brain malfunctioning in this thread via tossing out this red herring as if it were actually a relevant point instead of just adressing the issue at hand?

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Yes, there are stupid arrogant Christians and from this thread it should be clear that there are stupid arrogant nonChristians as well. A little reflection will make it clear that we tend to remember things that cause emotional reactions, which tends to make us focus on those who make us mad, which of course are the stupid people who disagree with us.</font>
There are a lot of violent gang members. There are also a lot of violent people who are not involved in gangs. But as a whole, gangs are much more prone to violence. Its the same with Christians: There are quite a lot more "stupid" (ignorant would be a better term) arrogant Christians than stupid, arrogant religiousless or even non-Christians. Christianity is a haven for stupid actions and arrogant thinking. Thats why the sterotypical ignorant, self-righteous Christian view of Christians is so popular: because its based on solid, observable, obvious facts.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Is it more stupid to believe that there are supernatural beings than to completely miss the obvious faults and confusions of your own brain?</font>
I think one of those faults would be not being able to recognize that believing in something as stupid as supernatural beings is a fault of the brain.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And do any of you even have the mental capability to put yourself in someone else's position?</font>
I certainly do - I was a Christian for most of my life, and can understand their position quite well.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Christianity is an attractive worldview and to those who accept it, they want to share it with others, especially if they feel it has eternal signficance.</font>
There are two fatal flaws with that attempt at justification, though:
1.Christianity is a false and ridiculous worldview, therefore; wanting to share that which is false and ridiculous is hardly something to be respected or, from an intellectual standpoint, even tollerated.
2. Christianity is a very dangerous philosophy which has done irrepairable damage to the world, and the little bit of good that its done (some soup kitches and a few converted ex criminals) could be, has been, and is easily done by a number of other, much safer (and, in the case of Buddhism, probably more rational) philosophies.

Therefore, since Christianity is false, ridiculous, dangerous and useless, one wonders why people would see the need to defend it.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And would it surprise you to know that all the clever little arguments and contradictions that you find so convincing don't make much of a difference to a Christian who has experienced the full emotional impact of belief in eternal life and belief in an all-powerful God which loves and cares specifically for them. These beliefs are emotionally and intuitively satisfying, and for those interested in deeper intellectual thought, there is plenty of sophisticated philosophy and theology to satisfy them. Making sense of contradictions and other 'mysteries' are peripheral activities which few care much about it. Does this make them all stupid and ridiculous?</font>
It makes them ignorant and embracive of stupidity and ridiculous things. Your argument is just an appeal to authority and emotion: "lots of people feel satisfied with it, therefore; its ok and a good thing". What about the millions who cannot stand it or are enslaved to it via fear-o-fire-n-brimstone brainwashing? What about the huge amounts of damage it has done or is still attempting to do to society?
Oh wait; we would be offending people's pet superstitious fantasies by pointing those out. So let all the people who embrace intelligence and shun idiocy just keep their mouths shut so as not to offend idiocy, no matter how damaging, dangerous, and idiotic it is! (being sarcastic)

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Do all of you live your lives full of logic and reason? Are you sure you don't believe things that aren't true? Are you sure you don't believe things that you haven't simply taken from others without thinking through yourselves? Have you solved the questions of free will and determinism when it comes to your own thoughts? Are you never in awe that the process of evolution has produced you? Are you aware that everything you are made of is full of subatomic particles acting in ridiculously weird ways? How much of the electromagnetic spectrum do you actually 'see'? How much of the universe are you actually aware of? How close is your perception to reality? How much of your knowledge have you personally verified?</font>
How many times will foolish people like you make these above-quoted campaigns to wipe red herrings off the face of the Earth by needlessly capturing and throwing out so many of them?

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">How many times have you acted like an ass and later regretted it?</font>
About 1/10th as many times in my whole life as you have in just this one post of yours.

[This message has been edited by Cute Little Baby (edited April 20, 2001).]
 
Old 04-20-2001, 04:45 AM   #22
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Baby: as a whole, gangs are much more prone to violence. Its the same with Christians


Exactly how are Christians “prone” to violence? If I remember correctly most of the United States identifies themselves as “Christian” – yet I doubt you’d go so far as to call the U.S. a big ‘ol mob of violent thugs.

Baby: There are quite a lot more "stupid" (ignorant would be a better term) arrogant Christians than stupid, arrogant religiousless or even non-Christians.

And I’m sure you have data to support this? By “data” I mean something other than throwing your bottle when someone disagrees with your stereotypes. Do you think negros dance better than white folk, too?

Baby: Christianity is a haven for stupid actions and arrogant thinking.

What could be more arrogant than making blithe generilizations about a large group of diverse people?

Baby: the sterotypical ignorant, self-righteous Christian view of Christians is so popular

Don’t forget that the penny-pinching Jew, or the God-hating Atheist who wears black and attends Marilyn Manson concerts is based on “solid facts” too. (I’m assuming by solid facts you’re referring to your prejudice again)

Baby: I was a Christian for most of my life, and can understand their position quite well.

Gee baby, I’m glad that you left those self-righteous hypocritical Christians to found your own brand of self-righteous hypocrisy.

PhysicsGuy: “Christianity is an attractive worldview and to those who accept it”

Baby: “There are two fatal flaws with that attempt at justification, though: Christianity is a false and ridiculous worldview…”


Christianity obviously is not a false and “rediculous” worldview to those who accept it. I think that was his point.

Baby: “wanting to share that which is false and ridiculous is hardly something to be respected or, from an intellectual standpoint, even tollerated”

“even tolerated”? This is a joke, right? Most Atheists I know strongly believe in the right to free speech and tolerating other ideas, even if they disagree with them. I don’t know what kind of Christianity you belonged to, but it seems you’ve brought all the negative traits you assign them along with you into your new worldview.

Baby: Christianity is a very dangerous philosophy which has done irrepairable damage to the world

Yes Baby, and we’re going to do even more when we get our Super-Satelite into orbit, conquer the world, and force you all to believe in angels. It will be a tribulation the likes which ye have never seen! It’s going to make silly stuff like support and shelter for widows, orphans and the destitute, opposing infanticide in the Roman Empire, the framing of the Magna Carta, the building of hospitals and the emergence of the nursing profession, the abolition of child labour by William Wilberforce, the establishment of the Red Cross by Henry Dunant, outlawing widow burnings in India, the African-American civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King, and Amnesty International started by Catholic lawyer Peter Benenson look so tiny by comparison!

 
Old 04-20-2001, 05:38 AM   #23
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Physics guy, you can make all of the assumptions you like about my attitude and how it formed. I assure you though that you have said nothing new to me in your post, that is all old news, I have simply chosen a side and I'm not gonna be shy about it anymore. Funny you have reffered to this as christian bashing, it's always about the poor wittle christians isn't it, don't want to hewt their wittle feewings. Fuck them. If they choose to be outward and in your face about their beleifs and religion, then damnit, I'll get right back in their face with it.

Physics Guy, I see christianity as an impediment to human beings. I see it as a lie, I see christians as being deceived eithor voluntarily or not. I see it as an injustice in the world to perpetuate that book.

And to your attack about the sincerity of my beliefs and opinion and whether they are my own or not, fuck you. You don't know shit about me and how I got to where I am, before you make charges like that you dolt, you should find out. I attack christians on the absurdity of their book that I think can be summed up in 1 statement,

Jesus "Im god, do what I say"

The exact words may not be in the bible, but you get the point. I don't need to understand freewill or determinism, or the big bang, or singularities to realize that that is an absurd statement. To accept that from a person face to face is bad, even worse is to accept that based on a weakly supported book. Scoff at me as you like, tiptoe around christians as you like, I'm fed up with them.

I will however say, that I think religion and blind faith and whatnot has served a good purpose in the history and developement of the civilization of man. I just think that the time has passed, and it is lingering around like an unwelcome guest.


Imagine your response to someone with that claim today...
 
Old 04-20-2001, 06:14 AM   #24
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Michael Wormwood:

I honestly don't know if your half blind or just plain stupid, but you might want to save yourself some embarrasment and go for the former. You so greatly take out of context or flat out miss the blatantly obvious point I was saying that its just...well, it does not speak well of you.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Baby: as a whole, gangs are much more prone to violence. Its the same with Christians


Exactly how are Christians “prone” to violence? If I remember correctly most of the United States identifies themselves as “Christian” – yet I doubt you’d go so far as to call the U.S. a big ‘ol mob of violent thugs.</font>
You didn't read on or else you were too much of an idiot (how CHRISTIAN of you!) to understand what I was saying. "The same with Christians", I go on to describe how they are more prone to ignorant, arrogant actions than society as a whole. "The same With Christians" implied that the stereotypes of gangs and Christians as being more likely to commit the negative actions pinned on them, is well grounded in fact.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Baby: There are quite a lot more "stupid" (ignorant would be a better term) arrogant Christians than stupid, arrogant religiousless or even non-Christians. [/b]

And I’m sure you have data to support this? By “data” I mean something other than throwing your bottle when someone disagrees with your stereotypes. Do you think negros dance better than white folk, too?</font>
Sure: the very definition and teachings of Christianity. Christians by definition believe the stories of the NT to be true, including the supernatural stories. Since these stories are all outrageous, ridiculous, and unsubstantiated, one must be very ignorant to believe in them.
Christians are arrogant because they believe all other philosophies are wrong and their adherents will go to Hell just for believing in Christianity. This, in turn, mandates that the Christians are right above and beyond everyone else (and they will go to Heaven), to the point of being "divinely" right. This is one of, if not the, closest thing to a pure incarnation of arrogance that one could ever define.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Baby: Christianity is a haven for stupid actions and arrogant thinking. [/b]

What could be more arrogant than making blithe generilizations about a large group of diverse people?</font>
It is stupid to believe in Christianity, and Christianity is an arrogant philosophy, therefore: it is a haven for stupid actions and arrogant thinking.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Baby: the sterotypical ignorant, self-righteous Christian view of Christians is so popular[/b]

Don’t forget that the penny-pinching Jew, or the God-hating Atheist who wears black and attends Marilyn Manson concerts is based on “solid facts” too. (I’m assuming by solid facts you’re referring to your prejudice again)</font>
Are most Jews obsessed with cash? Are large percentages of them coming up to you and asking you to donate to their bank? Of course not. Therefore: the stereotypical Jew is a ridiculous stereotype.
Do most atheists here shout out Maralyn Manson lyrics? Do most atheists you see rant and rave about how great it is to wear all black clothing and go to raves? Hardly.
Do most Christians here take an irrational view to support their belief? Are most Christians here trying to propogate their belief? YES.

Now do you see the difference?
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Baby: I was a Christian for most of my life, and can understand their position quite well.

Gee baby, I’m glad that you left those self-righteous hypocritical Christians to found your own brand of self-righteous hypocrisy.</font>
All you are doing is acting foolish and talking shit about my philosophy. Your only "evidence" to support your assertions are quotes taken out of context or who's points are so clear, yet so missed by you that one wonders why you aren't off playing with your building blocks and rattles instead of trying to master the art of going on the net and making a single bit of sense in what your typing.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">PhysicsGuy: “Christianity is an attractive worldview and to those who accept it”

Baby: “There are two fatal flaws with that attempt at justification, though: Christianity is a false and ridiculous worldview…”
You:
Christianity obviously is not a false and “rediculous” worldview to those who accept it. I think that was his point.</font>
And this means what to me? As most of your personal friends will tell you; believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is not a ridiculous worldview to those who accept it.
As reason will tell you: that does not make the worldview any less ridiculous.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Baby: “wanting to share that which is false and ridiculous is hardly something to be respected or, from an intellectual standpoint, even tollerated”

“even tolerated”? This is a joke, right? Most Atheists I know strongly believe in the right to free speech and tolerating other ideas, even if they disagree with them. I don’t know what kind of Christianity you belonged to, but it seems you’ve brought all the negative traits you assign them along with you into your new worldview.</font>
Again your too blind or idiotic to see the point: tolerance is not mandated from an intellectual standpoint. You got that? As in debates, arguments about facts, reason, learning environments which discuss various subjects, and that type of thing: from such a perspective, Christianity does not even count as a reasonable worldview and therefore should be ignored. But freedom of speech and religion in society, general human rights and such, are by no means to be ignored.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Baby: Christianity is a very dangerous philosophy which has done irrepairable damage to the world

Yes Baby, and we’re going to do even more when we get our Super-Satelite into orbit, conquer the world, and force you all to believe in angels. It will be a tribulation the likes which ye have never seen! It’s going to make silly stuff like support and shelter for widows, orphans and the destitute, opposing infanticide in the Roman Empire, the framing of the Magna Carta, the building of hospitals and the emergence of the nursing profession, the abolition of child labour by William Wilberforce, the establishment of the Red Cross by Henry Dunant, outlawing widow burnings in India, the African-American civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King, and Amnesty International started by Catholic lawyer Peter Benenson look so tiny by comparison!</font>
~shrugs~None of this holds a candle to your atrocities and potential for danger. You atribute positive actions to Christianity, yet fail to recognize the neutral or negative side:
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">support and shelter for widows, orphans and the destitute?</font>
Compared to your 2,000 year crusade against womens rights and the countless conservative Christians who oppose so many social aid programs, and support letting corperations run free and wild and opress all the people they want.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">opposing infanticide in the Roman Empire,</font>
Compared to the infanticide, and wholesale genocide of every single non-Christian or Christian who didn't agree with you that your Chrisitan forebearers could get their hands on.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">the framing of the Magna Carta,</font>
Compared to the countless Christians who came over here and ignored the rights of the indians by slaughtering them all.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">the building of hospitals and the emergence of the nursing profession,</font>
Most of which would still be there had you not build them, and which are insignificant when Compared to the millions who have died of disease and medical ignorance over the 1,000+ years that Christianity supressed medical science.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">the abolition of child labour by William Wilberforce,</font>
Compared to the embracement of slavery by the great percentage of all of Christendom's history.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">the establishment of the Red Cross by Henry Dunant,</font>
Compared to the establishment of the Ku Klux Klan by Nathan Bedford Forrest.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">outlawing widow burnings in India,</font>
Compared to the witch burnings done in the past and the murder of homosexuals that your beloved Christians do.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">the African-American civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King,</font>
Compared to the Aryan Nations and Ku Klux Klan who's members and leaders are mostly Christian/
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">and Amnesty International started by Catholic lawyer Peter</font>
Compared to all the ilegitimate, homeless children that are born because Christians crusaded against the "evils" of abortion.

[This message has been edited by Cute Little Baby (edited April 20, 2001).]
 
Old 04-20-2001, 06:47 AM   #25
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PhysicsGuy,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

SecWebLurker
 
Old 04-20-2001, 07:28 AM   #26
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Physics Guy appears to be the voice of reason rather than rhetoric.

Peace,

Polycarp
 
Old 04-20-2001, 07:29 AM   #27
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Atheist fundies. Gotta love em
 
Old 04-20-2001, 09:09 AM   #28
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Well said, Physic Guy!

The only problem I see with anyone taking your post seriously is that they would have to first give up the stereotypes and strawmen that they battle with so fiercely.

Once you give up the stereotypes and strawmen, all you have left is real people. And then you have nothing left at which to vent your anger and fear.

For most folks, that (giving up the stereotypes and strawmen) is the scarier proposition, thus the consistently trotted out stereotypical arguments and examples that have no correlations in the real world.
 
Old 04-20-2001, 09:30 AM   #29
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dmvprof, you can make all of the assumptions you like about my attitude and how it formed. I assure you though that you have said nothing new to me in your post, that is all old news, I have simply chosen a side and I'm not gonna be shy about it anymore. Funny you have reffered to this as forcing our views on you, it's always about the poor wittle atheists isn't it, don't want to hewt their wittle feewings. Fuck them. If they choose to be outward and in your face about their beleifs and irreligion, then damnit, I'll get right back in their face with it.
dmvprof, I see atheism as an impediment to human beings. I see it as a lie, I see atheists as being deceived eithor voluntarily or not. I see it as an injustice in the world to perpetuate that philosophy.

And to your attack about the sincerity of my beliefs and opinion and whether they are my own or not, fuck you. You don't know shit about me and how I got to where I am, before you make charges like that you dolt, you should find out. I attack atheists on the absurdity of their beliefs that I think can be summed up in 1 statement,

"I am Science - I will provide you with all answers on every subject."

The exact words may not be in the textbooks, but you get the point. I don't need to understand freewill or determinism, or the big bang, or singularities to realize that that is an absurd statement. To accept that from a person face to face is bad, even worse is to accept that based on a weakly supported book. Scoff at me as you like, tiptoe around atheistsif you like, I'm fed up with them.

I will however say, that I think science and experimentation and what not has served a good purpose in the history and developement of the civilization of man. I just think that the time has passed, and it is lingering around like an unwelcome guest.

Imagine your response to someone with that claim today...

So, dmvprof, if you were presented with these statements, what would your reaction be? I intentionally bolded the changes to show how few changes to your post I made.

If you are seeking to make a point, there are better ways. If you are merely venting, have at it. But if you are trying to convince anyone that your position as an atheist, free thinker, and individual free of the curse of Christianity is preferrable to the Christian position, then your thinnly concealed rage and anymosity towards whole groups of people of which you have personal knowledge of only the most minisucle percentage may be counter-productive to your goal.

Free advice is often worth what you pay for it - nothing.

[This message has been edited by RugbyJJ (edited April 20, 2001).]
 
Old 04-20-2001, 09:51 AM   #30
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cute Little Baby:
1.Christianity is hopelessly incoherent. The asshole Christians you meet will tell you that Layman, Metracrock, Nomad etc., are not true Christians because they are not damning everyone to Hell.</font>

Meta =&gt;Hey, who has the guall to say that about me? No seriously, first, thanks for distinguishing between the "assholes" and Nomade, Layman and I. Secondly, I know you are right man! In fact I should say "Duh, tell me about it." You would not believe the problems I had in some chruches just wanting to think about things! There were times when I almost lost my faith because of that attitude. So I will deny that it exist, or that in some places it is a major segment. But, it was just a matter of finding better chruches. Actually, you know what saved me from that was seminary. It was really a matter of finding educated people. Ignorance is the real enemy, education makes the difference.

I was jumped on a board by a fundamentalist a few months ago, over the literal nature of Genesis. I said Ok, so where is the firmament mentioned in chapter 1 and where is all that "water in the heavens." How come the astronauts never get wet when they go into orbit? He said "it's not real water, it's spiritual water!" Spiritual water? O come on !!!!!! That is going to such great lengths just to keep a lit. interp. of Genesis!


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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Layman, Metacrock, Nomad and others like them will say roughly the opposite: that their passive, tollerant, "intellectual" version of Christianity is the true one, or at least that the assholes known as "Fundies" aren't true Christians. The moderate Christians will tell you that both of them are wrong.</font>

Meta =&gt; Well now actually, be fair. say what I really said. I don't say they are false Christians. I say that there is no reason to allow those groups to speak for the tradition as a whole any more than there is to allow say, Martin Luther King to speak for the tradition as a whole. If you look at the history of the faith overall, for 2000 years, those groups that make us mad today tend to be from the Southern United States. So that is just one small corner of the Christian tradition if you think about the Roman Catholics around the world, The Eastern Orthodox chruch in Asia minor, the middle East and mediteranian, and liberal reveisionary groups which are the main line denominations in the U.S. such as Presbyterian and Methodist; the fundiesa are not the major representatives.


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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
The KKK Christians will tell you that all non-KKK Christians are wrong. The Socialist Christians will tell you that all non-socialist Christians are wrong. The "King James Only" Christians will say that those who use other Bible translations are wrong, and their opponents will say just the opposite about them.</font>
Meta =&gt; But I've seen interviews with former KKK chaplins, one on Ophrah, who said that they are not Christians. This guy was "converted" to Christianity from the KKK. He said they have their own cult thing and they don't like Chrsitianity.They just use it publically for their own purposes.


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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
The point is: when you complain about Christianity, most Christians will be stupid enough to tell you that all the things done that they do not agree with are done by people who are not "true" Christians. You will get fed up with this, but a good way to deny it is to turn int around on them with another philosophy. For example,simply say that Satanism is not at all a bad philosophy, because Satanic cults who kill people are not "true" Satanists.</font>

Meta =&gt; I don't say that they aren't "true" Christians. It's clear they don't represent the actual teachings of Christ, who said, don't judege, dont' hurt anyone,love your enemies, so they fail that test, and for me that is the crux of being a Christian. On the other hand, I'm not saying they aren't christians, they are following Christ as they understand him, they have a poor understanding. And all Christians are sinners saved by God's grace and in need of redeemption. So we are in need enlightening.


[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
2. Christians are brainwashed ignoramuses, but this does not necassarily make them bigoted fools. Rather, they act like this because they have been brainwashed into doing so. Remember that the majority of the most annoying Christians are also the most heavily brainwashed. They are largely just victims, just like freethinkers who resist Christian nonsense.


Meta =&gt; I defy you to show any brianwashing process, or to document that such a thing even exists. In fact here I have to say that you are the ignoramous. The I was a sociology major, one of my profs is one of the top sociologists of religion in the country today. He said that there is no such thing as "brianwashing." This is a socialization process, and if you know anything about the sociology of knowledge you will know that all groups have a socialization process. You think your precious "free thinkers" don't have one? Just try disagreeing with them more. Make a post showing a bit of sympathy for Chrsitians views and see what treatment you get.

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3.Instead of bashing Christianity so much, why don't you instead ask Christianity for proof of its supernatural claims. Have the burden of proof be on them, not you. They have not, cannot, and probably will not ever be able to prove their supernatural claims, so that should be the end of the discussion.
</font>

Meta =&gt; That shows a certain lack of understanding about the whole thing. But if you have been on the Exist of God board than you saw me prove the existence of God about 14 times. In the last bout no one could aswer my questions about where the laws of physics come from, or how time can emerge from non time without a mind to re-write the ruels.


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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
4.If really pressed up against the wall, use their own Bible against them. For example, ask them why they don't work six days of the week as the Commandment says: "six days of the week you shall labor and do all your work". By my count, there are around twenty different teachings in the Bible (give or take three) that Christians do not follow, but one or two looked up on your own should suffice..[/B]</font>
Meta =&gt; that shows a real misunderstanding of the whole thing. We dont' keep the Old law because we are under the new covenent.
 
 

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