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Old 02-17-2001, 12:15 AM   #1
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Post Absolute Morality - Observing the Sabbath

The fourth commandment states:

Exodus 20:8,10/Deut 5:12,14 - "Observe the Sabbath and keep it holy....On that day no one is to work - neither you, your children, your slaves, your animals, nor the foreigners who live in your country."

Also, Exodus 31:14-15 - "You must keep the day of rest, because it is sacred. Whoever does not keep it, but works on that day, is to be put to death. You have six days in which to do your work, but the seventh day is a solemn day of rest dedicated to me. Whoever does any work on that day is to be put to death."

Also, Exodus 35:2-3 - "...Anyone who does any work on the Sabbath is to be put to death. Do not even light a fire in your homes on the Sabbath."

In Numbers 15:32-36, a man gathering firewood on the Sabbath was stoned by God's command.

The penalty for working on the Sabbath (death) is equal to murder. In fact, if a person murders a slave, he is merely "punished" and if the slave takes a day or two to die then the murderer receives no punishment. (Exodus 21:20-21)

So keeping the Sabbath is perhaps an even more important commandment than not murdering people.

In Matthew 12:1-8, Mark 2:23-28 and Luke 6:1-5, Jesus justifies his disciples breaking the Sabbath by mentioning a priest's disobedience (1 Sam 21:1-6) of a command (Lev 24:9) which has no specified punishment for disobedience.
In Matt 12:5, Jesus mentions an example in Numbers 28:9-10 which is an exception when the Sabbath rule may possibly be broken - so if it is lawful to work on the Sabbath under some circumstances, it is lawful to work on the Sabbath under any circumstances. (Or it is lawful to kill people under some circumstances - does that mean it is lawful to kill them under all circumstances?)
In Matt 12:7 Jesus quotes "it is kindness I want, not animal sacrifices" from Hosea 6:6, an isolated quote which contradicts much of Exodus which command animal sacrifices, etc. People criticise others who turn the Bible against itself by quoting isolated passages and this is what Jesus has done.
In Matt 12:8 Jesus says "...for the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." So it seems that he is saying that his status allows him and his followers to break commandments (even ones that threaten a penalty of death).

The Sabbath apparently is on a Saturday. (It goes from 6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday I think???) But I think Paul changed it to Sunday (anyone know who changed it??) - to glorify the ressurection of Jesus.

Now God's morality is supposed to be Absolute! It seems very relative. Jesus's trickery undermined a whole commandment! And now almost all Christians wouldn't even know when the Sabbath is (Saturday), and many would do things that would be regarded as work on their heretical Sabbath (Sunday). And the penalty of death for working on the Sabbath is rarely exercised.

Though God can forgive our sins, we must do our best to avoid sin. And that means doing nothing that could be seen as work on the Sabbath (Saturday).

Absolute morality means sticking to the law by the letter.

Note: Though I sound like a fundamentalist, I'm actually an atheist.
 
Old 02-17-2001, 01:35 AM   #2
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Very good contradiction!

Yes the Sabbath does go on the times that you specified.

First background:

The Sabbath is elevated above other commands because its overt practice in the OT is the sign that one adheres to the Mosaic covenant (Exodus 31). A counter part is the way circumcision is related to the Abrahamic covenant as a sign of it. These signs are inseparably connected with what is obtained through them, but I have no space to go into detail.

In NT times, food laws have also extended themselves as signs at least in the religious leaders' minds.

This is why there is so much contention between these issues with Jesus and Messianic Jews of the 1st century. How you treat the Sabbath becomes a symbol of how you view the entire Law. This is some what comparable to how an American might treat a flag. The act is neutral. The meaning behind the act is pregnant with emotion, will, and meaning.

What makes the issue sticky is that God no where defines what work is. This is left up to rabbi interpretation. And they often disagreed as evidenced by the conflicts within 1st century Judaism over Sabbath observance. One group thought that picking grains from a field for oneself was work, others did not. Some applied the principle to inanimate objects (laundry on a line for example), others did not. There were all different rules about how much, how long, and how far.

The important fact that emerges is that by Jesus' day there was not a consensus about what constituted work. The wrong picture is that He is bucking the OT system. The accurate one is that He is entering stage center of a hot debate. It is hard not to step on somebody’s toes in such cases.

The condemnation by Jesus on the institutions of his day is almost always a condemnation of the abuses of a true system.

The first Christians were Jews who observed the Sabbath on Saturday along with all their Jewish brothers. The Christians would then meet on Sunday in commemoration of the Resurrection day. They did not replace the Sabbath. They added a new holiday. As gentiles filled the Church (to whom many laws of the OT do not apply) there was no longer a meeting on Saturday, but only Sunday.

The important statement of Jesus that is up for good discussion is "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath". Keeping in mind that capital letters are a highly interpretive mark, there are two possibilities: 1) all men are sovereign over their Sabbath observance, or 2) I, God and Messiah, am Lord of the Sabbath. Because the context is in a series of miracles that all conclude with statements about the nature of who performed them, I take the second position.

Then Jesus is saying, I am Lord of even the sign of the Law, and therefore the whole Law, and I have the ultimate right to decide its proper application.

This does not sit well with most Torah (law) center Jews. Is Jesus "greater" then the Law? Not even Moses would have made such a statement. Second Moses theology is a important thread contained within the Gospels. But they take it one step higher still. That Jesus has surpasses Moses in the revelation of God, intercession with God for the people, and the giving of the Law of God.

This is only offensive if He didn't. If He did, then this is no offense at all. These are the issues at work in the passages at which you are looking.
 
Old 02-17-2001, 03:11 AM   #3
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Josephus:
Very good contradiction!</font>
Thanks

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The Sabbath is elevated above other commands because its overt practice in the OT is the sign that one adheres to the Mosaic covenant (Exodus 31).</font>
Though it had been elevated in the past, it could at least still be universally recognised by Christians.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">How you treat the Sabbath becomes a symbol of how you view the entire Law.
</font>
Yeah, if you don't follow the law regarding the Sabbath to the letter, why be concerned about taking God's law against murder seriously?

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">This is some what comparable to how an American might treat a flag. The act is neutral. The meaning behind the act is pregnant with emotion, will, and meaning.</font>
Yes, working on the Sabbath doesn't seem to hurt anyone, but I thought that according to Biblical morality, disobeying God in any way is called "sinning". God's laws are final - that's why they are objective. Human notions of morality and justice can be very subjective.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">What makes the issue sticky is that God no where defines what work is.</font>
God gave quite a few examples of the types of work that would violate the rule about resting on the sabbath.
Sabbath Rules:
Exodus 16:23 - No baking or boiling
Exodus 16:29 - Don't go out and look for food
Exodus 35:3 - Don't light any fires
(Leviticus 25:1-7 - don't cultivate the land for one year every seven years - perhaps parallels to "work" during the Sabbath)
Numbers 15:32-36 - Don't gather wood
Numbers 28:9-10 - Animal sacrifices are ok
2 Kings 11:4-9 - Royal bodyguard work is ok
Nehemiah 10:31 - Don't buy merchandise or grain from neighbouring people
Nehemiah 13:15 - Don't sell food
Jeremiah 17:21-27 - Don't to carry a load or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem (see Matt 12:11-12 he claims sheep may be lifted - though loads and piles of wood cannot!)
John 7:22-7:23 - Circumise males

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">This is left up to rabbi interpretation. And they often disagreed as evidenced by the conflicts within 1st century Judaism over Sabbath observance. One group thought that picking grains from a field for oneself was work, others did not. Some applied the principle to inanimate objects (laundry on a line for example), others did not. There were all different rules about how much, how long, and how far.
</font>
But surely doing a regular 8 hour job would be considered work though - and that is what many Christians are guilty of doing on the Sabbath.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">...The condemnation by Jesus on the institutions of his day is almost always a condemnation of the abuses of a true system.</font>
I think it is quite clear what the laws of Moses were. And that Jesus was arguing against those original laws. (Not the corrupt interpretations of them)

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The first Christians were Jews who observed the Sabbath on Saturday along with all their Jewish brothers. The Christians would then meet on Sunday in commemoration of the Resurrection day. They did not replace the Sabbath. They added a new holiday. As gentiles filled the Church (to whom many laws of the OT do not apply) there was no longer a meeting on Saturday, but only Sunday.</font>
So that's where we get our 2 day weekend...
In Colossians 2:16 Paul says "So let no one make rules about what you eat or drink or about holy days or the New Moon Festival or the Sabbath." I guess Paul does away with the Sabbath because it compromised his conversion abilities, but kept his absolute stance on the other commandments.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Then Jesus is saying, I am Lord of even the sign of the Law, and therefore the whole Law, and I have the ultimate right to decide its proper application....Is Jesus "greater" then the Law?...</font>
Yes, perhaps Jesus could bend the rules for himself, but he has set a precendent which has caused us to break the commandment concerning the Sabbath.
BTW, what does Matt 5:17-20 mean?
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."


[This message has been edited by JohnClay (edited February 17, 2001).]
 
Old 04-15-2001, 12:31 PM   #4
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That means that thousands of animals died of thirst every sabbath, since there was nobody to draw water for them, especially on super hot days...
 
Old 04-15-2001, 01:15 PM   #5
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And on days when the "New Moon" or the day of atonement fell on a friday/sunday...
 
 

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