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Old 02-02-2001, 07:59 AM   #1
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Post Psalm 22:17

I realize this has probably gone around before, but I've not seen it, so here it goes again perhaps...

Christians have historically used Psalm 22 as one of many OT prophecies of Christ. The beginning, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me", are some of Jesus' final words on the cross as we are told in the gospels. This psalm possibly reveals his very thoughts as he hung near death on the cross.

Verse 17 (BSH, 16 NIV) of this psalm has been in dispute for a *long* time and is most difficult to translate due to a seemingly odd sentence structure.

Many Christians believe that a word in this verse is translated "pierced" as relates to Jesus being nailed to the cross.

Most Jewish translations translate this same word as "like the lion". The transliteration of "like the lion" would be something like "ca-ari". However, some manuscripts have "caru" which is not the same word.

The septuagint, a greek translation of the OT, was written by Alexandrian Jews around 250 B.C. and translated this word as "pierced". I would assume the Jews knew their own language. Why would they have "pierced" if this was not the intended meaning? Was it some sort of metaphor which actually used "like the lion" but meant "pierced"?

I'll let someone else comment on the Dead Sea Scrolls, their dating and contents.

Who's right and who's wrong? Why?

So crack out your scholarly books, exercise your hebrew and greek knowledge, and have at it!


[This message has been edited by Ish (edited February 02, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ish (edited February 02, 2001).]
Old 02-02-2001, 06:37 PM   #2
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Here is the way a pesher interprets the "My God why
have you forsaken me?" Those with pesher knowledge know
that there were two chief (high) priests during these
tumultuous times. Simon Magus was recently deposed and
was going to be crucified with Christ. His replacement
was Jonathan Annas. The other chief priest was Caiaphas.
Jesus expected support from Jonathan because they belonged
to the same faction of Jews, however, in truth, Jonathan
was getting pissed and Jesus' maneuverings and was aware
of Jesus threat to Jonathan's position. Jesus expected
Jonathan, as the chief priest, to pay his ransomed to Pilate.
Jonathan held the position of God and it was to him who
Jesus addressed his message before he drank the poisonous
wine on the sponge.
Now, as a pesher I have not knowledge of Greek or I
would graduate to a pesharist. I was unaware of "pierced"
being used instead of "forsaken". The man who stabbed
Jesus with the spear was Herod Agrippa I (who became the
last king of the Jews). His name is used to represent all
of the soldiers. He had a "falling out" with Jesus and
held him in animosity. As a matter of fact, Jesus had
about everybody pissed off at him. When Jesus bled
profusely it meant that he was still alive as opposed
to rigor mortis. Jesus followers had to act fast because
they had to treat the poison and stop the bleeding.
Joseph of Arithmea was Jesus' brother James and he
was now the ranking David and the tomb now belonged to
him. The 100 pounds of herbs was actually medicines and
Simon Magus was a physician. Simon would administer the
medicines and revive Jesus. Simon was previously an angel,
that is, he was a chief priest and he is the one who said,
"He is risen."
When Jesus' wife, the Magdalene, entered the tomb she
mistook Jesus for his brother James and that is why she
called him "the gardener", meaning Adam, the patriarch of
the family.

Old 02-04-2001, 08:11 PM   #3
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I don't doubt your sincerity, but I have to say that every post of yours that I've read leaves me thinking, "Huh?"

Are there any scholars behind your work? Who are they? I would like to read them because I just don't get where you're coming from in your posts...

What definition of the jewish word "pesher" are you using when you describe your method(?) as a pesher?

Another thing... Perhaps my post was not very clear, but "pierced" was not used in place of "forsaken" as you mentioned. The word "pierced" was used in the 16th verse of the 22nd chapter of Psalms (NIV...).

Let me try again since I didn't have any takers the first time...

Is "pierced" more correct in this verse or "like the lion"? Any opinions? This is the Biblical Criticism & Archaeology forum...

Old 02-04-2001, 09:45 PM   #4
Posts: n/a

Offa, I just read your website and I'd just like to say that cleared everything right up for me... I am happy to say there is no need to reply to my previous questions.

By the way, I don't mean to be nit-picky, but you make frequent use of an acronym "a.c.e". What exactly does that mean? "After the Common Era"? After pondering that impossibility for a moment, you might want to change it to "C.E.". This will help your credibility somewhat...

Anyone else? Please?

Old 02-05-2001, 04:19 PM   #5
Posts: n/a

thanks Ish,

I misinterpreted your post. Very interesting!
I have no idea at this time, but, even a blind squirrel may find an acorn!

Thanks about correcting my grammar, and yes, I was trying to make a.c.e. mean after the
common era. I need to work on my website, I have not touched it for months.

Is the source for the Alexandrian Jews and 250 B.C. originally from Josephus? My pesher sense is that Josephus was talking about a library whose true location is Qumran, and, that he is talking about the writing of Jubilees?

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