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Old 11-10-2001, 05:41 PM   #11
copernicus
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Well, I agree with you that it is bizarre from a contemporary perspective. All I'm saying is that it makes sense in the historical context of religions abandoning the sacrament of cannibalism. Think of it as the benign after-effect of a bad social disease. Enjoy your Easter and/or Passover meal, and don't gorge yourself on too much wine or bread.
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Old 11-14-2001, 12:49 PM   #12
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First of all, sorry for using bad punctuation :P

Second of all, believe it or not, some Christians actually DO use that "incident" as proof of god. I was actually talking to this Christian, and he/she said that scientists proved it ( now, thatis insane )!
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Old 11-15-2001, 09:52 AM   #13
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Transubstantiation



Transubstantiation, in Christian theology, dogma that in the Eucharist the bread and wine to be administered become, upon consecration, the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ, even though the external manifestations of the bread and wine—shape, color, flavor, and odor—remain. It is thus opposed to other doctrines, such as the Lutheran doctrine that the body and blood of Christ coexist in and with the bread and wine, which remain unchanged. See Consubstantiation.

The term transubstantiation was adopted into the phraseology of the church in 1215, when it was employed by the Fourth Lateran Council. The dogma was reconfirmed (1551) by the Council of Trent, as follows: "If any one shall say that, in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist, there remains the substance of bread and wine together with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ; and shall deny that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the species of bread and wine alone remaining, which conversion the Catholic Church most fittingly calls Transubstantiation, let him be anathema" (Session 13, Canon 2).

In his encyclical Mysterium Fidei (Mystery of Faith, 1965), Pope Paul VI restated the traditional teaching to correct the views of some modern Roman Catholic theologians that the change consists merely in a new religious finality ("transfinalization") or significance ("transignification"), resulting in either case in little more than a symbolic divine presence.

Transubstantiation is a doctrine not only of the Roman Catholic church but also of the Orthodox church. At the Synod of Jerusalem (1672), the doctrine was confirmed as essential to the faith of the entire Orthodox church. The dogma was repudiated by the Church of England.
http://encarta.msn.com/index/concise...?z=1&pg=2&br=1

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Old 11-15-2001, 09:53 AM   #14
brighid
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transubstantiation
Transubstantiation is the alleged process whereby the bread and wine offered up at the communion service has its substance changed to that of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ while its accidents appear to be that of bread and wine. What looks like, tastes like, etc., bread and wine is actually another substance altogether. How this happens is a mystery. How it can happen would require a miracle.

Transubstantiation is also known as the real presence.

further reading

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist - The Catholic Encyclopedia
http://skepdic.com/transubstantiation.html

Brighid
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Old 11-15-2001, 05:11 PM   #15
Amos
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Quote:
Originally posted by brighid:
<STRONG>transubstantiation
Transubstantiation is the alleged process whereby the bread and wine offered up at the communion service has its substance changed to that of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ while its accidents appear to be that of bread and wine. What looks like, tastes like, etc., bread and wine is actually another substance altogether. How this happens is a mystery. How it can happen would require a miracle.

Transubstantiation is also known as the real presence.

further reading

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist - The Catholic Encyclopedia
http://skepdic.com/transubstantiation.html

Brighid</STRONG>
Brigid, it is a very simple mystery and a not really a miracle at all.

First let me tell you that "this is my body" it is very much like "this is Buddha" and so "this is the Body of christ" would be equal to the Buddhist saying "this is the body of Buddah" and "this is the blood of Buddha." True, they may not actually say this in practice but the concept is the same, again: "this is Buddha" and "this is Christ."

In Buddhism the daily rounds of samsara are to culminate in the final round of samsara and after the final round of samsara Buddhahood has been attained by the Buddhist monk which will take him from parri-Nirvana to Nirvana.

In Catholicism the daily masses are to culminate in the final mass or Christ-mas and after this the Catholic will be a Christian in the nammer of Jesus of Nazareth who's example he is to follow from purgatory to Heaven.

This means that the body of Christ is "real food" and the blood of Christ is "real drink" (Jn.6:55) and so the problem is not in the actual transformation but in our perception of it.

No, not Pantheism but just the pantheist perspective in the end.

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Old 11-15-2001, 09:51 PM   #16
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Since this involves little Biblical criticism and more discussion of Catholic doctrine, I'm moving this to MRD where it will probably have more participants.
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