Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Photocrat · 10-09-2001, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtonm:
We hard atheists are fortunate to have Bede to tell us how we think.

Michael

You mean fundamentalist atheists.

As much as you protest to hate them, you turn around and read the Bible just like the ones you profess to hate. The only difference is that you disbelieve in God.

zenman · 10-09-2001, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kctan:
Strong's no. 1067 geenna {gheh'-en-nah}
of Hebrew origin 01516 and 02011

1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or
"Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom,
south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the
city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and
their future destruction.

It seems that the hell here & that of tony1 are quite different in the sense that the :

1 Matt 5:22 Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Translated to tony1 would read,

Thou fool, shall be in danger of grave fire.

2 Matt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Translated into tony1,

(snip) thy whole body should be cast into grave.

3 Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Translated to tony1,

(Snip) destroy both soul & body in grave.

4 Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Translated into tony1,

(Snip) than having 2 feet to be cast into grave, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Listed just 4 examples & can anyone tell me how many of them makes sense if hell is interpreted as grave/pit or whatever.

prov 15:24

"a word to the wise above that he may depart from hell beneath."

It's all symbolic

Romans: "I the LORD speak in parrables, so that seeing they will not see, and hearing they will not hear."

All parrables, allegory, no hell.

zenman

HelenM · 10-09-2001, 03:30 AM

For once zenman I might agree with you about 'allegorical'.

I have a truckload of question for anyone who thinks the hell passages are literal.

Like...uh...what's someone's 'worm'???

Uh

... it's a quote, it's a quote!!! <quickly clarifying...>

Quote:

Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Mark 9:42 " But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 44 "where `Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' [Jesus evidently, quoting Isaiah evidently]

love
Helen

Scrutinizer · 10-09-2001, 04:04 AM

Yes, I've always found it quite interesting that the Bible refers to hell both as a place of darkness and a place of fire. Is the fire black?

Regards,

- Scrutinizer

HelenM · 10-09-2001, 04:18 AM

Yeah and don't all those tears ('weeping') put the fire out???

If it's dark how can everyone else look on and fully enjoy it (thinking of the Isaiah quote I quoted)???

I think the fire must be real and the darkness metaphorical. Good job I can rightly divide the Word of God...

love
Helen

Scrutinizer · 10-09-2001, 04:26 AM

Yes, it's interesting the lengths fundamentalists are willing to go to defend metaphors as literal.

Regards,

- Scrutinizer

10-09-2001, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by atheistgal:


How low can you go?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Amos123:
Limbo is eternity spend living life following our lymbic system alone.
Amos
==========================================

Do you see a negative connotation in this?

If you would boast about the "age of reason" would you not think it is a good thing to be in Limbo?

Amos

tony1 · 10-13-2001, 11:25 AM

*Originally posted by kctan:
It seems that the hell here & that of tony1 are quite different in the sense that the :
1 Matt 5:22 Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Translated to tony1 would read,
Thou fool, shall be in danger of grave fire.*

Aside from the punnish aspects of being in grave danger, "hellfire" or "hell fire" is a concept all its own, based on gehenna.

*Translated into tony1,
(snip) thy whole body should be cast into grave.*

More cuteness,

*Listed just 4 examples & can anyone tell me how many of them makes sense if hell is interpreted as grave/pit or whatever.*

You can see what havoc the idea of "hell" as defined by Catholics, among others, has created.

Sheol (hell in Hebrew) gives no idea whatsoever of fire; it is the grave.
Hades (hell in Greek) similarly has no connection with fire.
Tartaros (another hell in Greek) has no connection with people.
Gehenna (hell fire in Greek) is obviously connected with fire, probably the lake of fire.

So, I don't know, perhaps verses referring to fire should be considered together, and verses referring to burial after death should be considered together.

Of course, given the propensity for atheist anti-Occam's razor reasoning, perhaps we should run the dictionary thru a blender, and post what comes out.

*Originally posted by fromdownunder:
If tony1 is interpeting "hell" as permanent death, and non existence, I for one do not have a problem at all, since that is what I believe will happen to me when I die and get cremated anyway.*

"Permanent" in a temporary sense.
For you it would be a minor quibble to resurrected only to be re-cremated again.
After that, it would be permanent.

*Originally posted by HelenSL:
Like...uh...what's someone's 'worm'???*

A maggot-like creature.

*Originally posted by Scrutinizer:
I've always found it quite interesting that the Bible refers to hell both as a place of darkness and a place of fire. Is the fire black? *

Heavy on the smoke perhaps?

The grave would be dark.
Gehenna, or the lake of fire, would be fire.

*Originally posted by HelenSL:
If it's dark how can everyone else look on and fully enjoy it*

The grave is dark and nobody sees anything there.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,...
(Ecclesiastes 9:5, KJV).

Looking happens later, and is only for the righteous.

Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
(Psalms 91:8, KJV).

*Originally posted by Scrutinizer:
it's interesting the lengths fundamentalists are willing to go to defend metaphors as literal. *

I've always thought it peculiar that liberals spiritualize everything to the point of complete confusion.

Fire doesn't mean fire, the grave isn't the grave, death isn't death, the sky isn't the sky, etc.
Presumably, life isn't life, either.

Teutonic · 10-13-2001, 04:03 PM

Again I say, interpretation interpretation interpretation.

Does G-d punish us because we had an understanding of the incorrect interpretation? That's like eternal punishment for not getting all the right answers on a test for which you received conflicting information when you were studying!!

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10-09-2001, 04:04 AM	#74
Scrutinizer Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 245	Yes, I've always found it quite interesting that the Bible refers to hell both as a place of darkness and a place of fire. Is the fire black? Regards, - Scrutinizer

10-09-2001, 04:18 AM	#75
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Yeah and don't all those tears ('weeping') put the fire out??? If it's dark how can everyone else look on and fully enjoy it (thinking of the Isaiah quote I quoted)??? I think the fire must be real and the darkness metaphorical. Good job I can rightly divide the Word of God... love Helen

10-09-2001, 04:26 AM	#76
Scrutinizer Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 245	Yes, it's interesting the lengths fundamentalists are willing to go to defend metaphors as literal. Regards, - Scrutinizer

10-13-2001, 11:25 AM	#78
tony1 Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Darkness to Light Posts: 55	Originally posted by kctan:* It seems that the hell here & that of tony1 are quite different in the sense that the : 1 Matt 5:22 Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Translated to tony1 would read, Thou fool, shall be in danger of grave fire.* Aside from the punnish aspects of being in grave danger, "hellfire" or "hell fire" is a concept all its own, based on gehenna. Translated into tony1, (snip) thy whole body should be cast into grave. More cuteness, Listed just 4 examples & can anyone tell me how many of them makes sense if hell is interpreted as grave/pit or whatever. You can see what havoc the idea of "hell" as defined by Catholics, among others, has created. Sheol (hell in Hebrew) gives no idea whatsoever of fire; it is the grave. Hades (hell in Greek) similarly has no connection with fire. Tartaros (another hell in Greek) has no connection with people. Gehenna (hell fire in Greek) is obviously connected with fire, probably the lake of fire. So, I don't know, perhaps verses referring to fire should be considered together, and verses referring to burial after death should be considered together. Of course, given the propensity for atheist anti-Occam's razor reasoning, perhaps we should run the dictionary thru a blender, and post what comes out. Originally posted by fromdownunder:* If tony1 is interpeting "hell" as permanent death, and non existence, I for one do not have a problem at all, since that is what I believe will happen to me when I die and get cremated anyway.* "Permanent" in a temporary sense. For you it would be a minor quibble to resurrected only to be re-cremated again. After that, it would be permanent. Originally posted by HelenSL:* Like...uh...what's someone's 'worm'???* A maggot-like creature. Originally posted by Scrutinizer:* I've always found it quite interesting that the Bible refers to hell both as a place of darkness and a place of fire. Is the fire black? * Heavy on the smoke perhaps? The grave would be dark. Gehenna, or the lake of fire, would be fire. Originally posted by HelenSL:* If it's dark how can everyone else look on and fully enjoy it* The grave is dark and nobody sees anything there. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,... (Ecclesiastes 9:5, KJV). Looking happens later, and is only for the righteous. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. (Psalms 91:8, KJV). Originally posted by Scrutinizer:* it's interesting the lengths fundamentalists are willing to go to defend metaphors as literal. * I've always thought it peculiar that liberals spiritualize everything to the point of complete confusion. Fire doesn't mean fire, the grave isn't the grave, death isn't death, the sky isn't the sky, etc. Presumably, life isn't life, either.

10-13-2001, 04:03 PM	#79
Teutonic Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 11	Again I say, interpretation interpretation interpretation. Does G-d punish us because we had an understanding of the incorrect interpretation? That's like eternal punishment for not getting all the right answers on a test for which you received conflicting information when you were studying!!

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