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Old 03-15-2001, 02:48 AM   #1
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Smile Mark Chapter 13 - Competition

I propose to conduct a competition to see who can give the best answer to a theological mystery.

It has traditionally been said in the Christian Church that in Mark Chapter 13 Christ predicted either :-

(1) The destruction of the Temple in AD70

or

(2) His second coming at the end of the world

Some scholars even say he was speaking at two levels and was considering both the above.

The competition relates to a third truly extraordinary possibility that has exercised the mind of some Christians.

If you analyse the word structures and phrases that occur in Mark Chapter 13 and the same words and phrases in Mark Chapter 14 there are clues to this third possibility.

I will announce later who has offered the best analysis .... which can equally well be done by theists or non-theists (though the latter may have to presume for the purposes of discussion that the events related are factual).

What could the third prediction be?

There is no prize ... other than the honour of being recognised as having produced the most competent analysis.

Blessings and Peace

Hilarius

[This message has been edited by Hilarius (edited March 15, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Hilarius (edited March 15, 2001).]
 
Old 03-15-2001, 08:37 AM   #2
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hilarius:
I propose to conduct a competition to see who can give the best answer to a theological mystery.

It has traditionally been said in the Christian Church that in Mark Chapter 13 Christ predicted either :-

(1) The destruction of the Tempple in AD70

or

(2) His second coming at the end of the world

Some scholars even say he was speaking at two level and was considering both the above.

The competition relates to a third truly extraordinary possibility that has exercised the mind of some Christians.

If you analyse the word structures and phrases that occur in Mark Chapter 13 and the same words and phrases in Mark Chapter 14 there are clues to this third possibility.

I will announce later who has offered the best analysis .... which can equally well be done by theists or non-theists (though the latter may have to presume for the purposes of discussion that the events related are factual).

What could the third prediction be?

There is no prize ... other than the honour of being recognised as having produced the most competent analysis.

Blessings and Peace

Hilarius

</font>
For interested parties, I have produced Mark 13. I don't think most posters will take the time to go and look it up in the Bible, so here it is.


13:1 Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts, one of his disciples said to him, "Teacher, look at these tremendous stones and buildings!" 13:2 Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!"

13:3 So while he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, 13:4 "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that all these things are about to take place?" 13:5 Jesus began to say to them, "Watch out that no one misleads you. 13:6 Many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he,' and they will mislead many. 13:7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 13:8 For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines. These are but the beginning of birthpangs.

13:9 "You must watch out for yourselves. You will be handed over to councils and beaten in the synagogues. You will stand before governors and kings because of me, as a witness to them. 13:10 First the gospel must be preached to all nations. 13:11 When they arrest you and hand you over for trial, do not worry about what to speak. But say whatever is given you at that time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. 13:12 Brother will hand over brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rise against18 parents and have them put to death. 13:13 You will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


13:14 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. 13:15 The one on the roof must not come down or enter to take anything out of his house. 13:16 The one in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 13:17 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 13:18 Pray that it may not be in winter. 13:19 For in those days there will be suffering unlike anything that has happened26 from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, or ever will happen. 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would be saved. But because of the elect, whom he chose, he has cut them27 short. 13:21 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe him. 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, the elect. 13:23 Be careful! I have told you everything ahead of time.

13:24 "But in those days, after the suffering, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light; 13:25 the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 13:26 Then everyone will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 13:27 Then he will send angels and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

13:28 "Learn this parable from the fig tree: whenever its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 13:29 So also you, when you see these things happening, know that he is near, right at the door. 13:30 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

13:32 "Now about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, except the Father. 13:33 Watch out! Stay alert! For you do not know when the time will come. 13:34 It is like a man going on a journey. He left his house and put his slaves40 in charge, assigning41 to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to stay alert. 13:35 Stay alert, then, because you do not know when the owner of the house will come-whether during evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or at dawn- 13:36 or else he might find you asleep when he comes suddenly. 13:37 What I say to you I say to all: Stay alert!"

I don't know if Jesus actually said the things placed in his mouth by the writer of Mark. SOMEONE thought the "son of man" was going to appear "in the clouds" within months, or at most, a few years. This is clearly stated in the text, and it is consistent with the beliefs of virtually every other NT writer. There is no hint that the End would come in the distant future.

With respect to the destruction of the temple, it is inconclusive whether it is a future or past event. Two possibilities: The writer may have known of the event (and put the prediction in Jesus' mouth, after the fact). Or, the writer may have written this narrative on the eve of the temple's destruction.

rodahi
 
Old 03-15-2001, 08:42 AM   #3
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I think Jesus was talking out of his ass... what do I win?
 
Old 03-15-2001, 11:06 AM   #4
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Thumbs up

My undying (and unresurrecting) respect and admiration.
 
Old 03-15-2001, 01:06 PM   #5
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Hello Rodahi

Thanks for posting the text of Mark 13 ... for this you alreay score a B+

I am afraid those who followed you have so far earned

Sentinel
E- for lack of effort and

Mr Jones
E- for encouraging Sentinel though a B+ for the wit in Mr Jones response would have been considered if Sentinel's effort had been better.

I gave an important clue to the third prediction when I said that the phraseology in Mark 14 should be compared with Mark 13.

Maybe you would consider posting Mark 14 also?

I am reluctant as a Christian to post large amounts of text and thus be considered instrusive, but in this case it would certainly assist those interested in taking the competition seriously.

Your point about ex post facto inclusion of predictive material does not, I think, do justice to the honesty of the original Christian authors, but you are certainly entitled to raise the possibility in this analytical context.

I am particularly interested in your thoughts concerning the possible third prediction. Getting that right will certainly assist your already good start.

Blessings and Peace

Hilarius

 
Old 03-15-2001, 01:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hilarius:
Hello Rodahi

Thanks for posting the text of Mark 13 ... for this you alreay score a B+

I am afraid those who followed you have so far earned

Sentinel
E- for lack of effort and

Mr Jones
E- for encouraging Sentinel though a B+ for the wit in Mr Jones response would have been considered if Sentinel's effort had been better.

I gave an important clue to the third prediction when I said that the phraseology in Mark 14 should be compared with Mark 13.

Maybe you would consider posting Mark 14 also?

I am reluctant as a Christian to post large amounts of text and thus be considered instrusive, but in this case it would certainly assist those interested in taking the competition seriously.

Your point about ex post facto inclusion of predictive material does not, I think, do justice to the honesty of the original Christian authors, but you are certainly entitled to raise the possibility in this analytical context.

I am particularly interested in your thoughts concerning the possible third prediction. Getting that right will certainly assist your already good start.

Blessings and Peace

Hilarius

</font>
Go ahead and post Chapter 14. I hope no one will complain about it. After all, I posted Chapter 13 and no one jumped on me.

rodahi

 
Old 03-15-2001, 02:51 PM   #7
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Smile

OK Rodahi ... here goes :-

Mark 14

1
Now the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some sly way to arrest Jesus and kill him.

2
"But not during the Feast," they said, "or the people may riot."

3
While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head.

4
Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, "Why this waste of perfume?

5
It could have been sold for more than a year's wages and the money given to the poor." And they rebuked her harshly.

6
"Leave her alone," said Jesus. "Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.

7
The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me.

8
She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial.

9
I tell you the truth, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."

10
Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them.

11
They were delighted to hear this and promised to give him money. So he watched for an opportunity to hand him over.

12
On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

13
So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him.

14
Say to the owner of the house he enters, `The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?'

15
He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there."

16
The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.

17
When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve.

18
While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me--one who is eating with me."

19
They were saddened, and one by one they said to him, "Surely not I?"

20
"It is one of the Twelve," he replied, "one who dips bread into the bowl with me.

21
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

22
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."

23
Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.

24
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

25
"I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

26
When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

28
But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee."

29
Peter declared, "Even if all fall away, I will not."

30
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today--yes, tonight--before the rooster crows twice you yourself will disown me three times."

31
But Peter insisted emphatically, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the others said the same.

32
They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray."

33
He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled.

34
"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch."

35
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him.

36
"Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

37
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Simon," he said to Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour?

38
Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

39
Once more he went away and prayed the same thing.

40
When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.

41
Returning the third time, he said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

42
Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

43
Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared. With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders.

44
Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him and lead him away under guard."

45
Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Rabbi!" and kissed him.

46
The men seized Jesus and arrested him.

47
Then one of those standing near drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

48
"Am I leading a rebellion," said Jesus, "that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me?

49
Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled."

50
Then everyone deserted him and fled.

51-52
A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

53
They took Jesus to the high priest, and all the chief priests, elders and teachers of the law came together.

54
Peter followed him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest. There he sat with the guards and warmed himself at the fire.

55
The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they did not find any.

56
Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree.

57
Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him:

58
"We heard him say, `I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.'"

59
Yet even then their testimony did not agree.

60
Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?"

61
But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, [6] the Son of the Blessed One?"

62
"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

63
The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked.

64
"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" They all condemned him as worthy of death.

65
Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him.

66
While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by.

67
When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him. "You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus," she said.

68
But he denied it. "I don't know or understand what you're talking about," he said, and went out into the entryway.

69
When the servant girl saw him there, she said again to those standing around, "This fellow is one of them."

70
Again he denied it. After a little while, those standing near said to Peter, "Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean."

71
He began to call down curses on himself, and he swore to them, "I don't know this man you're talking about."

72
Immediately the rooster crowed the second time. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: "Before the rooster crows twice you will disown me three times." And he broke down and wept.
 
Old 03-21-2001, 06:19 AM   #8
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Where are all the atheist whiz kids?

Blessings and Peace

Hilarius
 
Old 03-21-2001, 01:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hilarius:
Where are all the atheist whiz kids?</font>
Bored silly by your pointless posts? Just a guess.
 
Old 03-21-2001, 02:51 PM   #10
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Okay Hil, I give up.

What is the answer to the "theological mystery", and why should we care?
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