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Old 09-10-2001, 03:42 PM   #51
Nomad
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Quote:
Originally posted by emur:

My point here is that the issue is not clear because the bible is not clear. Some passages teach an eternal hell with eternal punishment. Some strongly suggest annihilation. Others teach universalism.

Why is this? Simply, the bible is not unified on many areas of doctrine because the men who wrote it differed on many areas of doctrine. It is nothing more than a compilation of many authors who differed widely on their views of god working in Jewish history and in early Christian history.
Hello mel

And thank you for your thoughts. At the same time, please remember that my comments in my last post spoke directly about Christian doctrine, and that doctrine is not derived from the Bible alone, but, rather, the Bible as understood and interpretted by the Church. In this case, as I said previously, Christian doctrines on Hell and the damned are very clear.

At the same time, your point that one may derive multiple interpretations from the Bible is noted, and is quite correct. This is why the Church itself has insisted that there must be a governing authority to offer final arbitration in correct understanding of God's Word. For me, this is where those who teach Sola Scripturea have erred, in so much as they have divorced interpretation from traditional understanding of the Holy Bible.

Thank you again, and be well.

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Old 09-11-2001, 10:58 AM   #52
emur
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nomad:
<STRONG>


At the same time, your point that one may derive multiple interpretations from the Bible is noted, and is quite correct. This is why the Church itself has insisted that there must be a governing authority to offer final arbitration in correct understanding of God's Word. For me, this is where those who teach Sola Scripturea have erred, in so much as they have divorced interpretation from traditional understanding of the Holy Bible.

Thank you again, and be well.

Nomad</STRONG>
Nomad,

But the bottom line is, what is the correct understanding of god's word, as you call it? The Church's position isn't necessarily correct (consider indulgences, the burning of desenters at the stake, and the crusades). It has assumed it is correct and then applied its authoritarianism to implement its "correct" views.

This is true also within Protestantism. Each denomination believes its understandings of god's word are correct, and then (in most cases) applies its authoritarianism to implement its "correct" views.

With the independent Protestant churches, the same occurs.

So whether the churches use tradition, the bible, or some combination of the two, we still are no closer to a doctrinal "truth" regarding hell.

Mel
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Old 09-23-2001, 06:37 PM   #53
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I speak as a Christian, though probably as indecisive and cowardly as any , but the Bible is ambiguous about the mortality or immortality of those consigned to everlasting torment. None of us can examine the Bible without prejudices. We all put the slants on our interpretation as we have been taught.

Christadelphians and Seventh Day Adventists, as well as conservative evangelicals, such as John Stott, have done good well in supporting a conditional immortality view that souls consigned to hell literally die the second death and don't suffer without end.

What troubles me with the most common interpretation of hell, that is literal and unending,is that Zoroastrianism held to it before the Hebrews. The belief in Hades, a place where disembodied spirits resided, began with the Greeks.

A Christadelphian pointed out in an article an interesting questions that went something like this: How could these pagans be enlightened about the state of the wicked before the Hebrews, God's chosen people, were?
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Old 09-23-2001, 09:08 PM   #54
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How could Ovid have known about Romeo and Juliet before that Bard? Perhaps they just stole the idea for their own work of fiction?
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Old 10-08-2001, 02:52 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by TacticalLoco:
I don't know which bothers me more; fundies or salad bar christains.
That's the problem with us Christians -- if we're fundamentalists, we're stupid, closed-minded clearly wrong, and if we're liberals, we're "salad bar Christians", inconsistent and dishonest. I suppose we're stuffed either way, huh? -- hmmm... maybe that was a bit too graphic!

The problem, as I see it, is that some skeptics think one's personal philosophy must be formulated on an all-or-nothing basis. I mean, just because a skeptic doesn't think every word of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is true and authoritative doesn't mean they're being a "salad bar skeptic". It means they're disposing of the parts that are false, whether it be on the basis of clear philosophical error, contradictory reasoning or historical inaccuracy.

I guess we're not always right, but that's the nature of the best, huh?

Regards,

- Scrutinizer
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Old 10-08-2001, 09:55 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scrutinizer:
<STRONG>

That's the problem with us Christians -- if we're fundamentalists, we're stupid, closed-minded clearly wrong, and if we're liberals, we're "salad bar Christians", inconsistent and dishonest. I suppose we're stuffed either way, huh? </STRONG>
You've hit the nail on the head. Once you admit that the holy scripture is infallible, what do you base Christianity on? If you try to pick out only the historically accurate or reasonable parts, you are left with very little (except for a lot of real estate and tax exemptions, of course. And perhaps a few ethical principles that you could have imported from Buddhism or Greek philosophers.)

Quote:
<STRONG>
The problem, as I see it, is that some skeptics think one's personal philosophy must be formulated on an all-or-nothing basis. I mean, just because a skeptic doesn't think every word of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is true and authoritative doesn't mean they're being a "salad bar skeptic". It means they're disposing of the parts that are false, whether it be on the basis of clear philosophical error, contradictory reasoning or historical inaccuracy.

</STRONG>
But that is the essense of skepticism. Test everything, reject what is false. Don't follow holy scripture.
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Old 10-08-2001, 10:49 AM   #57
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Can I chime in on this one?

Thunder and Nomad, the main problem with your argument, as I see it, is that the concept of the complete annihilation of the human soul is alien both to the old and new testament scriptures. The immortal soul is as much a ‘given’ as the existence of god is. The nonexistence of god was inconceivable to the Hebrew authors of the bible and the fact that the soul was immortal was never in question. It is all too easy to impose modern ways of thinking on ideas that were conceived in a totally different world to our own. My own view is that we will both share the same fate of all homanides when they die and any notional beliefs about the nature of the after life will only live on in the minds of those we leave behind. The ideas of heaven and hell have arisen only because of the drive we have to see good deeds rewarded and evil deeds punished, how useful these primitive myths are in facilitating these outcomes is now a moot point; their only use now is as ammunition for the opposing members of the worlds differing religions when they slug it out amongst themselves.

Regards, Steph.
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Old 10-08-2001, 11:56 AM   #58
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Hell is reserved for those that believe in hell.

Prov 15:24 a word to the wise above, that he may depart from hell beneath.

It's a stste of consciousness, thats all.

Just like heaven is a state of consciousness.

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Old 10-08-2001, 01:47 PM   #59
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This is one strange thread.

Non-believers discussing the Biblical concept of hell.

It seems like a lot of atheists are atheists because of this one issue.

The so-called Christian input doesn't appear to be of much help.

For those who claim to believe the Bible, how about reading it once in a while?

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
(Psalms 37:20, KJV).

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Malachi 4:3, KJV).

For those who claim not to believe it, but build strawmen on the basis of what someone else says the Bible says, how about reading it to find if you're attacking anything remotely resembling what you think you're attacking?

There are four words translated "hell" in the KJ version, for example.

Sheol, Hebrew for grave or pit.
Hades, Greek for underworld or grave.
Tartarus, Greek for the place where fallen angels are kept.
Gehenna, Greek for the Hebrew for the Jerusalem garbage dump which does happen to have a fire burning in it.

Tartarus appears once and doesn't concern people a whole lot.

Gehenna, which is the Jerusalem garbage dump is also referred to as the lake of fire.

The other two both mean grave.

There is a literal hell, many of them in fact.
The cemeteries are full of them.
If you don't believe in a literal hell, then close your eyes tightly when you walk past a cemetery.

As for the cartoon version of hell, where the devil wears red leotards and carries a giant red fork, that comes from an imaginative reading of the Catholic Catechism, which in turn is a fictional work based primarily on (I think) the ingestion of large quantities of psychoactive mushrooms.

The separation from God fans haven't read this...

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
(Psalms 139:8, KJV).

Where would you go to be separated from God?
Perhaps behind a large rock?

The eternal torture fans haven't read that the torture is for the devil and his angels.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Revelation 20:10, KJV).

For those who think it applies to people via some other verse, namely....

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Revelation 14:11, KJV).

note carefully that the smoke rises forever.
Just like...

And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
(Revelation 19:3, KJV).

For those who think the day and night go on forever, it doesn't say that.
It says "no rest day nor night."

That stops when night stops which is...

And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
(Revelation 21:25, KJV).

And there shall be no night there;...
(Revelation 22:5, KJV).

God isn't in the business of torturing people forever.

He's going to burn the trash, to get rid of it.
.
.

[ October 08, 2001: Message edited by: tony1 ]
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Old 10-08-2001, 01:52 PM   #60
hezekiah jones
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Quote:
Originally posted by tony1:
The so-called Christian input doesn't appear to be of much help.
Got that right.

Quote:
He's going to burn the trash, to get rid of it.
Angry little man, aren't you? Care for some sugar in your porridge?
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