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Old 02-12-2001, 06:32 AM   #1
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Post Jesus' disciples standards of proof?

John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-- 2 the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-- 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

John 20:25
So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe."


So if Jesus' disciples use this same standard "seen with eyes" "touched" in order to have belief in something, how is that any different from standards in science, athiesm, etc.

These disciples weren't required to take a leap of faith and abandon their current knowledge, they had proof. My requirement for of proof or at least consistency before 100% belief is outlined in the bible.

John 1-.. Is apparently trying to ask us if we would suspend this requirement, even though it was needed by the original christians.

How can we be expected to be so much better or different from the disciples who actually were with Jesus, and saw him, but would not believe without proof?

David


 
Old 02-12-2001, 11:55 AM   #2
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Thumbs up

I believe the official stance of the Catholic church is that we can't believe it as well as the apostles could.

They allow doubters into heaven.
 
Old 02-12-2001, 05:02 PM   #3
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The Gospels have a pretty relaxed idea of what constitutes "faith," anyway. Take the story of the Centurion (Matt. 8:5-13 or Luke 7:3). The Centurion comes to Jesus (or sends Jewish elders on his behalf, according to Luke) and requests that Jesus heal a servant. Jesus says "I have not found such great faith anywhere in Israel."

Maybe he was referring to the Centurion's community-building efforts (blurring the line between faith & works). But it seems that all that is required for "great faith" is hearing a story and believing it.
 
Old 02-13-2001, 07:42 AM   #4
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Grumpy:
The Gospels have a pretty relaxed idea of what constitutes "faith," anyway
</font>
It seems to me if you change the meaning of even one word, then none of the words in the book have a real meaning because they are all subject to change.

Anyhow, back to the topic,

It doesn't matter what the bible says about faith. These passages don't refer to faith, Thomas says he will not believe unless...

So I guess unless some fundie can pick on the word 'believe', my point is still valid regardless of the word 'faith' in the bible.

David
 
Old 02-15-2001, 11:00 AM   #5
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Lightbulb

hmm
 
Old 02-17-2001, 01:52 AM   #6
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Faith and belief come from the same word family in Greek. There is no essential difference. America is one of the only cultures that separate mental assent and commitment. Faith and faithfulness also are closely related in Greek. In their mind, one does not have faith/belief without loyalty.
I wonder how the passages would sound if they were read as loyalty in every place faith was found.

The authority of the Bible rests solely on the authority ascribed to theocratic Prophets in the OT and Apostolic athority in the NT. In some ways (I say this catiously) it is not so much what was written, but who wrote it. This is one reason dating and authorship is so touchy. Otherwise it is just someone's wise saying about life.

Is there a different standard of proof put on people today than the disciples? I still wrestle with this one myself. The dedication of Christians is based not so much on personal proof as much as on the testimony of those that have been graced with such. Not what do you believe, but rather who do you believe? Hard question we all must face.
 
Old 02-17-2001, 02:38 AM   #7
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offa; Shouldn't John 1:1 be changed to John1 1:1?.

We should not confuse your John 1:1 with the 4th gospel;
JOHN 01:01 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God."


BTW, Jesus was the Word

Notice that in John 20:25 there is no mention of
"nails in the feet".[/B] Jesus feet were not pierced, he
survived the crucifixion and he left the burial cave
upon his own two feet.

It was pretty hard for Thomas to believe that Jesus was still
alive and his doubt was removed when he saw Jesus' hand's
and his side. Of course he seen his feet, he was probably
wearing sandals and what he seen, was, well, feet! No holes.


ACT 06:07 "And the word of God increased; and the number of
the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great
company of the priests were obedient to the faith."


For those who understand pesher, this means a son (Justus)
was born to Jesus and Mary Magdalene. AD 37
 
Old 02-19-2001, 12:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Josephus:

Is there a different standard of proof put on people today than the disciples? I still wrestle with this one myself. The dedication of Christians is based not so much on personal proof as much as on the testimony of those that have been graced with such. Not what do you believe, but rather who do you believe? Hard question we all must face.
</font>
Very good comment, it doesn't say much about the claims of christians that they speak to god, feel the power of jesus, witness miracles, etc etc.

 
 

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