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Old 07-12-2001, 12:39 PM   #1
jre
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Post quick help needed

We all know the common apologetic trick in response to God telling the first lie. God tells Adam he'll die if he eats from the tree of knowledge, which he doesn't. Apologists tell us Adam died a "spiritual death", which we all know to be the sweetest pile of bullshit.

While arguing with a Fundamentalist, this came up. He did the whole "spiritual death" jazz, like a good like inerrancy bot. However, I'd like to devastate him horribly. Sadly, I do not have a Strong's Concordance with me, as the local library has it as an in-library reference book only. I can't go to the library until the weekend at soonest, so I was wondering if anyone can provide me with the following:
  • Strong's number for "die" in Genesis 2:17
  • The complete definition of the Hebrew word (in English, of course).
  • Any URLs that discuss this
THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU (in advance)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@1!!!!

[ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: jre ]
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Old 07-12-2001, 01:03 PM   #2
Mac
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Quote:
Originally posted by jre:
<STRONG>We all know the common apologetic trick in response to God telling the first lie. God tells Adam he'll die if he eats from the tree of knowledge, which he doesn't. Apologists tell us Adam died a "spiritual death", which we all know to be the sweetest pile of bullshit.

While arguing with a Fundamentalist, this came up. He did the whole "spiritual death" jazz, like a good like inerrancy bot. However, I'd like to devastate him horribly.
</STRONG>
You might try asking him if that means the soul isn't immortal after all.

Mac
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Old 07-12-2001, 01:17 PM   #3
Koyaanisqatsi
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I'd try The Biblical Errancy Website first and foremost.

As for a concordance, I'm sure if you just typed in "concordance" in any search engine, you'd get what you're looking for.

Also, have you tried searching through Infidels' library? May be something there on the topic.
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Old 07-12-2001, 01:42 PM   #4
Muad'Dib
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I've been told that he didn't die immediately, but he did die, which he wouldn't have if he hadn't eaten from the tree at all.

That, IMO, is a good answer for that particular question. Why eating from the tree was sufficient cause for the (eventual) death penalty is another matter, however.
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Old 07-12-2001, 02:04 PM   #5
jre
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Quote:
Originally posted by Muad'dib:
<STRONG>I've been told that he didn't die immediately, but he did die, which he wouldn't have if he hadn't eaten from the tree at all.

That, IMO, is a good answer for that particular question. Why eating from the tree was sufficient cause for the (eventual) death penalty is another matter, however.</STRONG>
That's a good one, but it falls short. The second tree that God didn't want the humans to eat from (hence their banishment from Eden) was the Tree of Life, where upon consuming the fruits of they would have eternal life.

So God is upset about the humans losing eternal life that he keeps them from having it back?
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Old 07-12-2001, 02:21 PM   #6
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If I recall correctly, I think that God said Adam would die "on the very day" he ate of the fruit, which does away with the argument that he died eventually because he ate the fruit.

[ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]
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Old 07-12-2001, 02:26 PM   #7
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Here's the verse in Genesis, from www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
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Old 07-12-2001, 02:36 PM   #8
Muad'Dib
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Quote:
Originally posted by MortalWombat:
<STRONG>If I recall correctly, I think that God said Adam would die "on the very day" he ate of the fruit, which does away with the argument that he died eventually because he ate the fruit.</STRONG>
Yep. Looks like you have to use a metaphorical or allegorical interpretation after all. My bad.
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Old 07-12-2001, 03:28 PM   #9
Freedom Man
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The NJBC states that: "'to die' here means to be cut off, excluded from community with God, as in Ezek 18 and in other P texts; the man and the woman will be driven from the garden of God, not killed."
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Old 07-12-2001, 04:00 PM   #10
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Sorry, I'm not familar with the initials of NJBC. I'm guessing "New Jerusalem Bible Concordance"?
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