Freethought & Rationalism Archive

05-30-2001, 01:01 PM

thinker,

I read through Genesis 1. I did not see anything about implying a flat earth. This is the definition of firmament from www.dictionary.com:

Quote:

Note: In Scripture, the word denotes an expanse, a wide extent; the great arch or expanse over out heads, in which are placed the atmosphere and the clouds, and in which the stars appear to be placed, and are really seen

You need to clearly explain why firmament implies a flat earth.

05-30-2001, 01:12 PM

From Metacrock:

and it was largely though the efforts of Christians that he did discover it.

Really? How about naming some great scientific discoveries made by Christians that were not disavowed by the Christian Church?

05-30-2001, 01:19 PM

TrueThinker, if an object has four corners, that fact tells us something about that object's shape. And if the Earth is shaped like a ball, it cannot have *any* corners.

Furthermore, the Book of Revelation tells us that the stars will someday fall out of the sky, which is consistent with the sky being a downward-pointing bowl, something that there is indication of in the Old Testament. The OT also states that there is an ocean of water above the sky and another such ocean underneath the Earth, which strongly parallels Babylonian cosmology.

The Book of Revelation also states that everybody will see Jesus Christ as he comes down from Heaven, which would be difficult for those living on the other side of the Earth from JC.

It is clear that the Bible nowhere unambiguously states that the Earth is shaped like a ball, and it certainly does not deal with what might be called Lactantius's Paradox of stuff on the other side.

05-30-2001, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock:

1) it's all true, it's just a question of how each idividual work convey's truth, either mythologically or literally.

"Everything is true...from a certain perspective..." - Obi Wan Kenobi

Meta, what is a mythological truth?

05-30-2001, 03:59 PM

Anyone who thinks flat-Earthism does not exist or is not related to the creationist and geocentrist movements is wrong.

http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/...ety_flyer.html

The Urban legends people even say its true.

Last line of their flyer :

In 30AD JC said... seek and find the Truth and it will set you free. Free from the Pathological Liars...the great pretenders who mislead all flesh and blood.

05-31-2001, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thinker:
Metacrock - your claim that no Christians have believed in a flat earth since the 17th century is ridiculous. They believe it allright and they are just the people at the very far end of the YEC and creationist movements, just as you are at the liberal end. They are your brothers. Why do you disown them?

Meta =>that's so stupidly dishonest. You are trying to stick the foatmentation of such notions on to Christainity so you so can say "see what religion does to people." Christians invented modern science. There may be some lunies out there who just happen to be Chrsitains and flat earhers but the vast overwhalming majority are not and the contributtions of Chrsitain thought to science are so vast that that argument is just total ignorance.

Quote:



I assume you failed to read the article. Your reaction is precisely what is documented in the paper. Most YECS look down on the the flat-earthers just as you look down on the YECS and just as those of us that realise the whole shebang is a load of nonsense look down on YOU.

Quote:

MEta =>I look down on you becasue you are an uneducated lout. I will prove this if the gut to bebate me you know nothing you cannot think you are an uneducated itdiot. You are so far benieth me intellectually that I will not post to you again.

05-31-2001, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
TrueThinker, if an object has four corners, that fact tells us something about that object's shape. And if the Earth is shaped like a ball, it cannot have *any* corners.

Furthermore, the Book of Revelation tells us that the stars will someday fall out of the sky, which is consistent with the sky being a downward-pointing bowl, something that there is indication of in the Old Testament. The OT also states that there is an ocean of water above the sky and another such ocean underneath the Earth, which strongly parallels Babylonian cosmology.

The Book of Revelation also states that everybody will see Jesus Christ as he comes down from Heaven, which would be difficult for those living on the other side of the Earth from JC.

It is clear that the Bible nowhere unambiguously states that the Earth is shaped like a ball, and it certainly does not deal with what might be called Lactantius's Paradox of stuff on the other side.

ahahahaahhhahahahahahahahahah my God you are stupid! STupid! REvelation is all symbolism dum ass.! It does not tell us that the stars will really fall out of the sky you idiot that is a symbol you moron do yo not know what a symbol is? NO you probably arent smart enough to understand the concept of a symbol anyone who would think that Revelation is really saying that is just a total moron!

05-31-2001, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
[LP on Lactantius on the absurdity of the roundness of the Earth; from the http://www.newadvent.org translation]

Metacrock: ahahhaahahahahahaahahahahahahaha, that was written in like the 3d or 4th century. So again you fualt ancietn people for being ancient. Even though the Greeks already knew better, there were still good reasons for thinking the earth was flat in the 3d or fourth century. If you didn't have the math and you didn't have a space program how would you know? There was a way that Aristorchus (I think) discovered the answer, but even that wasn't widely known and isn't necessarily fool proof. So how would you know?

LP: Lactantius was someone who was in a position to appreciate the demonstration that the Earth is shaped like a ball; he makes a lot of mention of pagan philosophers and their beliefs. Yet he laughed instead of trying to understand.

Meta =>he didn't believe in a flat earth only that it didn't have antipodes and there were Greek philosphers who didn't believe that either.

And Aristarchus of Samos was one of the first to propose Copernicanism, not round-earthism; we don't know who came up with the round-Earth hypothesis, but Aristotle does state it clearly in _On the Heavens_ (available online).

Meta =->Agustine beleived in a round earth.

Metacrock: Why is it that sketpics forget everything they learned in English class when they look at the bible. I assume you have taken an English class in school?

LP: What was I supposed to have learned in English class?

MEta =>Duh, if you can't figure that out it's hopeless, but a good example is this guy below who thinks that revelation is really saying the stars will fall out of the sky.

Metacrock: Why would you expect the OT to be a science text book? God didnt tell them about nuclear fission, why should he tell them about the shape of the earth? Why expect the Bible to have scientific truth in it? Why is that important?

LP: Where is the disclaimer in the Bible that states all this? Why doesn't the Biblical God warn his worshippers that some parts of His Book are not meant literally? If I was a god, I certainly would not want to be misunderstood. Would you?

MEta =>WHat! YOu think the Bible has to have a disclaimer saying "this is not real science" and you have to ask what you should have learned in English class? LIke how read maybe. .

Metacrock: That's for man to disocover and it was largely though the efforts of Christians that he did discover it.

LP: Who worked it out from the Bible, right? I'd like to see how one comes up with nuclear fission from the Bible.

Hu? Man you are a priceless idiot! My point was that it's not in the Bible you moron. You guys are so fucking stupid!

Metacrock: But why should the Bible tell him about it? The Bible assumes the cultural background and environment of the ancient world for exactly the reason I speak of in the thread on redaction; because revelation isnt just a booming voice demanding ver batem dictation it's a human record of people's experiences of God.

LP: Very ingenious. And I note that the Bible itself features a "booming voice demanding verbatim dictation" in some places; IMO, it's a more efficient and less ambiguous form of revelation.

Metacrock: It's not a sicence text book. Why should it be?

LP: Tell that to your friendly neighborhood fundamentalist some time. To a fundamentalist, the Bible is true, and that's that. Without such convoluted qualifications. Which makes fundamentalism a wonderfully simple creed.

God damn get a brain! Ask the Wisard at the end of the yellow brick road.

05-31-2001, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
TrueThinker, if an object has four corners, that fact tells us something about that object's shape. And if the Earth is shaped like a ball, it cannot have *any* corners.

I think you are a little confused about the "corners" of the earth the Bible speaks of. It's definiteley not referring to the Earth's shape.

Quote:

Furthermore, the Book of Revelation tells us that the stars will someday fall out of the sky, which is consistent with the sky being a downward-pointing bowl, something that there is indication of in the Old Testament. The OT also states that there is an ocean of water above the sky and another such ocean underneath the Earth, which strongly parallels Babylonian cosmology.

Did you read the definition from www.dictionary.com for "firmament"? It has nothing to do with the shape of the Earth. The "stars" falling out of they sky is more of a reference to fallen angels. The "water above" in Genesis is referring to the clouds. Clouds are made of water. You knew that right? That's how we get rain.

Quote:

The Book of Revelation also states that everybody will see Jesus Christ as he comes down from Heaven, which would be difficult for those living on the other side of the Earth from JC.

With the technology we have today everybody will have the ability to see Jesus come from heaven. All you need is a live satellite feed. The way the world is "connected", geographical location is not a limitation to seeing what is going on in other parts of the world. As technology improves it will become a lot easier. An event that dramatic just needs to be captured and brodcast live on all the news networks. Anyone with access to a TV would be able to view it.

05-31-2001, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock:
I look down on you becasue you are an uneducated lout.

You look down on me 'becasue' I'm an educated lout? Of course metacrock, luvvie, I'm well known around here for my lack of education.

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock:

I will prove this if the gut to bebate me you know nothing you cannot think you are an uneducated itdiot.

I have the gut to bebate anyone!

You have not explained why I am an uneducated 'itdiot'?

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock:

You are so far benieth me intellectually that I will not post to you again.

Erm. That'll be 'beneath'.

It has to be said that for someone so immensely better educated than I you are having remarkable difficulty in putting together a coherent sentence. I can't say I'm particularly bothered if you decide my questions are too difficult for you to give me an answer.

Non-theists > theistic evolutionists [except metacrock] > creationists > geocentrists > flat-earthers > certified psychiatric cases > metacrock.

[This message has been edited by thinker (edited May 31, 2001).]

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05-30-2001, 01:12 PM	#22
Guest Posts: n/a	From Metacrock: and it was largely though the efforts of Christians that he did discover it. Really? How about naming some great scientific discoveries made by Christians that were not disavowed by the Christian Church?

05-30-2001, 01:19 PM	#23
Guest Posts: n/a	TrueThinker, if an object has four corners, that fact tells us something about that object's shape. And if the Earth is shaped like a ball, it cannot have any corners. Furthermore, the Book of Revelation tells us that the stars will someday fall out of the sky, which is consistent with the sky being a downward-pointing bowl, something that there is indication of in the Old Testament. The OT also states that there is an ocean of water above the sky and another such ocean underneath the Earth, which strongly parallels Babylonian cosmology. The Book of Revelation also states that everybody will see Jesus Christ as he comes down from Heaven, which would be difficult for those living on the other side of the Earth from JC. It is clear that the Bible nowhere unambiguously states that the Earth is shaped like a ball, and it certainly does not deal with what might be called Lactantius's Paradox of stuff on the other side.

05-30-2001, 03:59 PM	#25
Guest Posts: n/a	Anyone who thinks flat-Earthism does not exist or is not related to the creationist and geocentrist movements is wrong. http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/...ety_flyer.html The Urban legends people even say its true. Last line of their flyer : In 30AD JC said... seek and find the Truth and it will set you free. Free from the Pathological Liars...the great pretenders who mislead all flesh and blood.

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