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Old 04-07-2001, 12:27 PM   #11
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mars:
The Skeptic’s Annotated Bible?

Hello? “Familiar spirits”? Can someone tape Sabrina the Teenage Witch for this guy? BTW, I'm writing to the webmaster and asking him to write the word "kill" in big red bloody-drippy letters; It's hard to harden your heart against Jesus when webmasters are this lax.

Any man or woman who consults the spiritsof the dead shall be stoned to death. Any person who does this is responsible for his own death.

</font>
Are you for real?

Michael

 
Old 04-07-2001, 04:41 PM   #12
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rodahi:

If Jesus was alluding to his own enemies (unbelievers) then he suggested (via the parable) that they should be slain.

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Certainly it seems pretty clear to me that the nobleman represents Jesus - the parable is an exhortation to believers to do something useful while they await the Second Coming... a sign that by the time Luke's Gospel was written Christians were starting to come to terms with the fact that the expected end of the world had been delayed. Assuming the nobleman is Jesus, the last comment can't refer to anything other than the slaughter of unbelievers when he returns.

You could also try Matthew 5:18-19, where Jesus approves of every "jot and tittle" of the Mosaic law. Then pick any piece of OT intolerance you like.

My favourite would be Deuteronomy 13:6-11. If your wife, the woman you love, the mother of your children, should one day say after twenty years of marriage "I'm having my doubts about Judaism you know. I'm thinking of becoming a Hindu. Let's worship Rama instead" then you must kill her without pity. Not respect her right to an honest opinion, but kill her without pity. Not persuade her that she is mistaken and show her the true love of God, but kill her without pity. Not "I am God, miracles are my business and I will show her the error of her beliefs" but "kill her without pity."

Truly this book provides the most perfect moral code which has ever been written.

PS I must be pretty stupid, but I can't tell whether Mars is trying to be serious or not. Given that he gives an Xian apologist site in his profile I'm rather worried that he might be...

 
Old 04-07-2001, 05:07 PM   #13
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turtonm: the souls of the slain in Revelation 6 are asking the Lord how long it will be before his return to earth for the Last Day judgment of all men and speaks of the Christian willingness to leave judgment in the hands of God:

'Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse...Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord. On the contrary: 'If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.' Romans 12
 
Old 04-07-2001, 06:24 PM   #14
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by turtonm:
NASB: How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

As a call to kill people on Earth, it is pretty clear. In context, it's a call for revenge on those who killed believers.</font>
It's a call for judgement not revenge, they are different things. And yes, it's a call on those who killed believers. Aren't those who killed believers quite different from unbelievers in general?

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">[B] No, in some versions they use "cut off," (KJV) in others, it says "castrate." In some it says "mutilate," which is pretty damn clear. NIV uses "emasculate" even clearer. It doesn't seem much of a stretch from 'emasculate' to "castrate" in other versions.

I checked at Bible Gateway, so maybe all their versions of Galatians 5:12 are wrong.</font>
Actually the castration is not the bit I disagree with. It is the only bit I agree with. It's the rest of your interpretation I have problems with:
'Paul comes close when he wishes that unbelievers be castrated. Gal 5:12'
Paul doesn't want them to be castrated: He's making a joke.
He's not talking about unbelievers either.
 
Old 04-07-2001, 07:02 PM   #15
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tercel:
It's a call for judgement not revenge, they are different things. And yes, it's a call on those who killed believers. Aren't those who killed believers quite different from unbelievers in general?</font>
Sure! But it was the best i could do. Rodahi did much better.

wrong.[/QUOTE]
Actually the castration is not the bit I disagree with. It is the only bit I agree with. It's the rest of your interpretation I have problems with:

'Paul comes close when he wishes that unbelievers be castrated. Gal 5:12'
Paul doesn't want them to be castrated: He's making a joke.
He's not talking about unbelievers either.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, it reads that way in the KJV. But the
NIV: As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Does he mean people who agitate against circumcision? It doesn't look like a joke to me, but of course I may be reacting to language I take pretty seriously. &lt;mournfully&gt; No doubt I am wrong again. What does it mean, if you wouldn't mind explaining?

Michael
 
Old 04-07-2001, 07:26 PM   #16
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by irenaeus:
turtonm: the souls of the slain in Revelation 6 are asking the Lord how long it will be before his return to earth for the Last Day judgment of all men and speaks of the Christian willingness to leave judgment in the hands of God:

ireanaeus: 'Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse...Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord. On the contrary: 'If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.' Romans 12

"A man is living with his father's wife...Let him who has done this be removed from you...I have already pronounced judgement in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh." (1 Cor. 5:1-5)

 
Old 04-07-2001, 10:05 PM   #17
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by turtonm:
Yeah, it reads that way in the KJV. But the
NIV: As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Does he mean people who agitate against circumcision? It doesn't look like a joke to me, but of course I may be reacting to language I take pretty seriously. &lt;mournfully&gt; No doubt I am wrong again. What does it mean, if you wouldn't mind explaining?</font>
You need some context: The whole point of Paul's letter to the Galations is that there are some people who are causing trouble with the Church in Galatia. They were probably Jews or Jewish Christians. These people were trying to get the Galatians to follow the OT Laws including circumcision etc. Paul spends the first several chapters of the letter explaining why Christ's death has done away with the Law and made circumcision unnecessary. He points out therefore that if the Galations decide to circumcise themselves then they are in effect denying Christ's removal of the Law. To those who are annoying them he suggests they go all the way, not only circumcising themselves but castrating themselves as well.
Paul is obviously not expecting those people to go and castrate themselves, and I am sure he is not serious in his suggestion. He is just making a joke at the expense of those annoying the Galations.

[This message has been edited by Tercel (edited April 08, 2001).]
 
Old 04-07-2001, 10:12 PM   #18
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rodahi:
In the narrative attributed to Luke, Jesus tells a parable about a nobleman, his servants, and the citizens of his kingdom. The story ends with these words, "But as for these enemies [the citizens who hated the nobleman because he was severe] of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me." (19:27)

If Jesus was alluding to his own enemies (unbelievers) then he suggested (via the parable) that they should be slain.
</font>
Except of course for that parallel to be valid the slaying would have to occur after the 2nd Coming. So Jesus isn't suggesting killing unbelievers now.
 
Old 04-07-2001, 10:33 PM   #19
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tercel:
Except of course for that parallel to be valid the slaying would have to occur after the 2nd Coming.</font>
Hell, if Jesus Christ ever returned (assuming he was ever here once) even I'd be a believer, and save the Jeez a killin'.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So Jesus isn't suggesting killing unbelievers now.</font>
He's gonna kill 'em after they're dead. You guys are hilarious.
 
Old 04-08-2001, 05:53 AM   #20
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[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tercel:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by rodahi:
In the narrative attributed to Luke, Jesus tells a parable about a nobleman, his servants, and the citizens of his kingdom. The story ends with these words, "But as for these enemies [the citizens who hated the nobleman because he was severe] of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me." (19:27)

If Jesus was alluding to his own enemies (unbelievers) then he suggested (via the parable) that they should be slain.
</font>
Tercel: Except of course for that parallel to be valid the slaying would have to occur after the 2nd Coming. So Jesus isn't suggesting killing unbelievers now.

If Jesus meant that unbelievers would be cursed to hell, rather than killed, when the Son of man was to come and judge the world, then that fate would be WORSE than death, for ALL would already be dead. Being cursed to the lake of fire for eternity seems a bit harsh for simple unbelief. It certainly is worse than simply being slain.


rodahi

 
 

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