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Old 07-20-2001, 11:51 AM   #1
lpetrich
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Post Jesus Christ vs. Sai Baba

In the What's New section of this site, there is the announcement of a detail discussion of the miracles worked by a certain Sai Baba:
http://psg.com/~ted/bcskeptics/sbmir/db-book.html

Not only had he reportedly worked a large number of them, but he had reportedly worked some of the sort of miracles that Jesus Christ was reported to have worked:

* Turning water into gasoline for a car (sort of like turning water into wine for human partygoers)

* Doing cures and raising someone from the dead

* Making various objects materialize, including food

So is there any reason to consider Jesus Christ's miracles any more credible than Sai Baba's?

Here are some counterarguments with some counter-counterarguments:

* Jesus Christ has a bigger following than Sai Baba. However, JC lived about 2000 years ago, while SB lived recently, and may still be alive. A more appropriate comparison may be to Christianity's first century, when it was as close in time to its founder as we are to Sai Baba; back then, it was an obscure, little-known cult.

* Believing in Jesus Christ has given me great personal happiness. Given the track record of similar claims for other religions, I'm sure that many of Sai Baba's followers could make the same sort of claim.
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Old 07-20-2001, 01:11 PM   #2
Winston Day
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Unlike 2000 years ago, we have the means to sniff out a out someone like Sai Baba. He is a fraud who molest little boys. His magic tricks have been recorded on tape and we have hundreds on firts hand accounts of his life, unlike that of Jesus.
WD
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Old 07-20-2001, 04:17 PM   #3
Vorkosigan
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Quote:
Originally posted by Winston Day:
<STRONG>Unlike 2000 years ago, we have the means to sniff out a out someone like Sai Baba. He is a fraud who molest little boys. His magic tricks have been recorded on tape and we have hundreds on firts hand accounts of his life, unlike that of Jesus.
WD</STRONG>
Sai Baba a molester? Can you give me a source for that? The Baba is one of my favorite comparisons, I use him all the time. I always thought of him as a rather harmless and engaging fraud. I'd sure hate to find out he was a molester.

Michael
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Old 07-20-2001, 04:28 PM   #4
Mac
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Quote:
Originally posted by Winston Day:
<STRONG>Unlike 2000 years ago, we have the means to sniff out a out someone like Sai Baba. He is a fraud who molest little boys. His magic tricks have been recorded on tape and we have hundreds on firts hand accounts of his life, unlike that of Jesus.
WD</STRONG>
Winston...does this mean that, if there had been the means 2,000 years ago, Jesus' magic tricks might have been "sniffed out"?

Just curious.

Mac
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Old 07-20-2001, 05:06 PM   #5
Jesse
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Everything you ever wanted to know about Sathya "Sai" Baba, and more, can be found here:
http://vclass.mtsac.edu:940/dlane/saidebates.htm

It's got plenty of critical articles, as well as some rebuttals from Sai Baba followers, which show "fundiethink" in a very clear light...for example, evidence of trickery is always rationalized as some kind of spiritual lesson or even as evidence of Baba's wacky sense of humor.
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Old 07-20-2001, 06:42 PM   #6
Winston Day
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Question

I always hate it when a good guy goes bad. I was a Swaggart fan actually. He is still on at 9 o'clock here. I really enjoy his gospel music.
I read a book about Sai Baba once and he sounded like an alright guy. Here is the link that says he is a fraud and molestor: http://www.davidicke.com/icke/articles2/babafraud.html

Mac,
Your asking me what happened 2000 years ago?!?!? Read JD Crossan, Spong or Rod Parsley, a little John Hagee maybe. I was not there and I don't know. I know I have never seen anyone do anything like that!
WD
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Old 07-20-2001, 10:49 PM   #7
Mac
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Quote:
Originally posted by Winston Day:
<STRONG>
Mac,
Your asking me what happened 2000 years ago?!?!?</STRONG>
No, Winston. I was actually curious about your opinion of Jesus' reported miracles. I didn't intend to sound snide, but I expect I did.

<STRONG>
Quote:
Read JD Crossan, Spong or Rod Parsley, a little John Hagee maybe. I was not there and I don't know. I know I have never seen anyone do anything like that!
WD</STRONG>
I've read Spong and Crossan for sure. I may have the others, too...I'll have to go through my books to see exactly what I have.

Mac:::heading toward 12'x 5' bookcase in livingroom, then off to 9'x 5' bookcase in bedroom, then planning to shuffle through assorted stacks in 'puter room:::
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Old 07-21-2001, 01:11 AM   #8
aikido7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Winston Day:
<STRONG>Unlike 2000 years ago, we have the means to sniff out a out someone like Sai Baba. He is a fraud who molest little boys. His magic tricks have been recorded on tape and we have hundreds on firts hand accounts of his life, unlike that of Jesus.
WD</STRONG>
I feel that Sai Baba is acting out fundamentalism by taking "miracles" in a literal sense and thus trying to duplicate them in the real world.

No one gives birth with an intact hymen, no one can walk or stand upon water deeper than one inch, and--while undoubtedly people can feel "healed" of their illnesses, the curing takes place in an exchange of placebo-like interaction.
Some scholars believe Jesus "healed" outcasts by making them feel "included" and accepted in the heavily structured purity code of first-century life. This broken barrier alone would change a leper's entire outlook for the better.

As for Jesus producing sundials out of thin air (or thick robes) that is nonsense. But I am sure he did healings and exorcisms--common actions by charismatic prophets and holy men of that time.
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Old 07-21-2001, 01:34 AM   #9
phaedrus
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Saibaba? The hirsute piece of crap? He is just living proof of the gullibility of the masses (add to those masses the politicians and few scientists who actually touch his feet in reverence)

Enuff said...
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Old 07-21-2001, 04:10 AM   #10
Winston Day
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Hi MAC,
You did not sound snide at all. Hagee and Parsley are the other end of the spectrum, fundamentalists. I doubt you would have them except for entertainment value, while I actually enjoy them!!
What do I think happened?
Well the tradition of Jesus performing miracles occur in Mark as well as John's gospel. I have read and am familiar with the theory about a "Signs gospel" and other possibilities about how the tradition originated. There is little middle ground on the miracles. The ones described are either people being cured of physical or mental ailments(demons, blindness, insanity) or major ones like turning a shopping cart worth of food into a store. Not to mention raising the dead. I am not a theologian or even a historian, although I read both. I would speculate the minor cures were a testament to the power of mind and suggestion and the major ones are the products of myth. That is just my best guess.
WD
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