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Old 05-31-2001, 11:53 AM   #1
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Question A Fish Story: Sodom & Gomorrah

I was doing some research (special thanks to Bible Gateway) on the story of Sodom & Gomorrah, curious as to where the references to homosexuality reside. Here’s what I found.

God destroys Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis 19. Beforehand, at the beginning of the chapter, he sends two angels to rescue Lot, Abraham’s nephew, from Sodom. Lot convinces the angels to stay the night in his house. They ate, and before they retired for the evening, the men of Sodom surrounded Lot’s place, saying lots of different things in lots of different versions of the Bible’s Genesis 19:5.

In the following translations, the men of Sodom ask that the men who came to Lot come out of the house, that they be known.

Young’s Literal Translation
and they call unto Lot and say to him, `Where [are] the men who have come in unto thee to-night? bring them out unto us, and we know them.'

Darby Translation
And they called to Lot, and said to him, Where are the men that have come in to thee to-night? bring them out to us that we may know them.

Revised Standard Version
and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them."

King James Version
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

21st Century King James Version
And they called unto Lot and said unto him, "Where are the men who came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

In the following translations, the men of Sodom ask that the men who came to Lot come out of the house, that they be screwed.

New King James Version
And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."

New American Standard Bible
and they called to Lot and said to him, " Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations (intercourse) with them.''

New International Version
They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

I know nothing about the chronology of these individual translations, except the obvious: the KJV came before the new or 21st Century KJV’s. Can anybody explain their chronology to me? When did the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah supposedly happen? During this time, or anytime since, has “known” ever implied a sexual tone?
 
Old 05-31-2001, 12:23 PM   #2
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Uh - I think that "know" is a well known King James euphemism for "have sex with". Current times are less delicate and more forthright.
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Old 05-31-2001, 12:39 PM   #3
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Toto:
Uh - I think that "know" is a well known King James euphemism for "have sex with". Current times are less delicate and more forthright.</font>
To take this a little further, I believe if you'll continue reading Lot says something like "do not do so wickedly." How could it be considered wicked if all they wanted was to become acquainted with the men? And if you read some more, you'll see he offers up his virgin daughters. Here again, if making an acquaintance was their only motive, one assumes they would already be acquainted with Lot's daughters, so what purpose could it serve to send them out?
 
Old 05-31-2001, 02:34 PM   #4
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Okay – question: Can a man have sex with an angel? Do angels have genitalia? A while back I remember reading something about this passage and it made mention of a possibly better interpretation of the behavior. It was something to the effect of the common use of rape in conquest, including that of men by other men. That is was not meant as a sexual act (as rape never is) but rather a way to humiliate another human being and assert power over that person. Just as in the instances of rape in jail. Are those men gay or is it something more brutal and less sexual?

Also, there are many other wicked things that could be done to these men besides demanding sexual relations – which is NOT clear, but only assumed after the virgins are raped. Back in the day, women were not considered to be worth much of anything – as attested to by the fact that a father sent his VIRGIN daughters out into an angry mob of marauding men knowing they would be harmed. Aren’t these also the same girls who then get their father drunk, and commit incestuous acts with him. Maybe to pay him back for making them into damaged goods whom would be unable to marry or bear children legitimately.

I would have to research the timing of those translations.
 
Old 05-31-2001, 03:22 PM   #5
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by brighid:
Can a man have sex with an angel? Do angels have genitalia?</font>
I believe you'll find your answer here.
 
Old 05-31-2001, 03:52 PM   #6
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Most Rabbis I've heard gloss over the virgin daughter stuff and claim Sodom was destroyed for being inhospitable to strangers and not taking care of there poor & destitute.
Archaeologists claim the Sodom was destroyed long before the story was written, many cultures have similar stories, the village preist will point to an old well known city ruin and tell a story about how the people there were bad and punished by the local god, so you better behave!
 
Old 06-01-2001, 07:09 AM   #7
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Hoffman - That is very funny! I have read something similar to that before and it still remains amusing!!

Marduck - I have heard the same interpretation from the Jewish community, with little to zero emphasis placed upon sexuality. Hospitality and neglect of the poor is a common theme in many stories interpreted from Scripture through the Jewish perspective. Interesting isn't it, how when a Jew translates a JEWISH text the story takes on a completely different meaning them when a Christian misinterprets the same text to support a view of Christianity. And this came from the SAME god??

I can't tell you how many times my own mother has used that very verse to support her view that homosexuals are all pedophiles and that all they want is sex, sex, sex with as many partners as possible - hundreds in a single night even. And I wish I was exaggerating about her feelings! OY!

Brighid
 
Old 06-01-2001, 09:47 AM   #8
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Wouldn't you want to 'Know' who was in your village at night? Wasn't their caution justified in the light of subsequent events? Didn't Lot knob both his own daughters and get them pregnant in the cave, then blame it on them for getting him comatose?
 
 

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