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Old 11-27-2001, 05:54 PM   #11
Sauron
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Quote:
Originally posted by a_theistnotatheist:
<STRONG>
Second, the point WAS *not* to take wars, rumours of wars etc. as proof that the end is coming ("Soon").
"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." (Mt24:6) All of Matthew 24:4-13 is an "intermediary" period before the end. The point is NOT to take it as proof that the end is "coming", for these things are not a sign of the end. That's what I said, if you can get it.
(vs. 14)</STRONG>
But that isn't what the text actually says. Here it is:

MAT 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
MAT 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

MAT 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
MAT 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
MAT 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
MAT 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
MAT 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
MAT 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
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Old 11-28-2001, 05:05 AM   #12
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A-theist -
You are correct – Jesus is not quoted as saying that an earthquake in Jerusalem will kill 7,000 people – BUT God gave this revelation to John and isn’t Jesus that God/Holy Spirit giving that Revelation? And even though the god-man Jesus is not directly quoted as saying this, aren’t ALL predictions/revelations/prophecies his and therefore any inaccurate such as stated further in the 24th Chapter of Matthew (which by the way are a direct quote of the god-man) the responsibility of this god, whatever he happens to call himself by at the time?

I am specifically referring to the later verses of this chapter in Matthew quoted above by another poster… Mat 24:34 … verily I say onto you, THIS GENERATION shall NOT pass till ALL these things be fulfilled. So is Jesus/God/Holy Spirit saying that the generation 2000 + years ago shall not pass until all those things be fulfilled?

He also stated the same thing in Mat 23:36 and prior in the book of Matthew in 10:7 – “And as ye go, preach, saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand” and he tells the apostles they will be persecuted in 10:23 and that “ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, verily … till the son of man be come.” In subsequent chapters of Matthew, specifically 16:28 “Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.” Then there is Mar 9:1 and 13:30 that make the same predictions and again in John 5:25.

Also – could you point me to the verse about the “two witnesses” as I don’t seem to be able to find that particular verse you have referenced? I would like to be able to research your claim further.

Regardless of whether or not Jesus is specifically identified as the man who made the remarks about the earthquakes – he made many VAGUE claims. The same vague claims can be made by anyone, in any generation about wars and kingdoms rising up against each other, famine BUT your Jesus does SPECIFICALLY say that the end will be soon, in the generation of the prophets/apostles and although no SPECIFIC sign will be given to them, here is a list of precursors so they can have confidence the end is near and his coming is imminent. And if this God – sometimes Jesus man – sometime Holy Ghost entity tells one of his divinely inspired and hand picked men that Jerusalem with be devastated by an earthquake, the likes which man has NEVER been seen and there were more devastating earthquakes PRIOR to this prediction and many far more catastrophic AFTER then – well, I am afraid that the veracity of such claims/prophecies/divine revelation is suspect at best and utterly nonsense at worst.

Finally, there are sects of Christianity that do claim the earthquake theory – specifically LDS’s (and I think Seventh Day Adventists) and therefore this is a claim that must be examined. This point of contention between the differing sects of Christianity as to whether or not the earthquake theory is factual is but one of the myriad of reasons the bible is such a joke. If so many different men (enough the create 38,000 different sects) cannot agree as to the ACTUAL interpretation of the bible, Christian men who are supposed to be possessed of a greater illumination of truth because of their god, it seems laughable that those of us who are possessed of this “illumination of truth” should put ANY stock in truth of it either. Although one does not need that argument to support a lack of belief in the divineness of any book of mythology, specifically that of the Judeo-Christian bible and it’s gods.


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Old 11-28-2001, 05:40 AM   #13
hezekiah jones
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Quote:
Originally posted by uncle_onion:
We can line up geologist on both sides of the isles to confirm both sides.
Nice Freudian slip!
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Old 11-28-2001, 08:42 AM   #14
Koyaanisqatsi
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Did anyone just explain to these people exactly what earthquakes are (the constant and omnipresent result of plate tectonics that exist necessarily on all planets) and that an increase (or decrease) is like saying that, "humans, when they grow, increase overall output of carbon dioxide?"

Not to mention the fact that--beside ones feet and noticing the cattle get a little jumpy--there was no possible way to measure the omnipresent extent of seismic activity in Jesus' day?
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Old 11-28-2001, 10:04 AM   #15
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Koy -

I am afraid that those theists who believe such crap about earthquakes would discredit the factual knowledge that thousands of these earthquakes happen every single day because science is the work of "satan."

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Old 11-28-2001, 11:13 AM   #16
Doubting Thomas
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Sounds like they are twisting research by only citing that which validates their point.

Quote:
From the USGS: As more and more seismographs are installed in the world, more earthquakes can be and have been located. However, the number of large earthquakes (magnitude 6.0 or greater) have stayed relatively constant.
So, earthquakes are not increasing, rather our detection of them is. Twist it and you can make it look like there are more quakes.

Shame on them!

-T
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Old 11-28-2001, 12:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by brighid:
[QB]A-theist -
I am specifically referring to the later verses of this chapter in Matthew quoted above by another poster… Mat 24:34 … verily I say onto you, THIS GENERATION shall NOT pass till ALL these things be fulfilled. So is Jesus/God/Holy Spirit saying that the generation 2000 + years ago shall not pass until all those things be fulfilled?
The generation that "sees these things" shall not pass away. Which is why he pointed out the blooming of the fig tree.
Quote:
He also stated the same thing in Mat 23:36 and prior in the book of Matthew in 10:7 – “And as ye go, preach, saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand” and he tells the apostles they will be persecuted in 10:23 and that “ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, verily … till the son of man be come.” In subsequent chapters of Matthew, specifically 16:28 “Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.” Then there is Mar 9:1 and 13:30 that make the same predictions and again in John 5:25.
And the next day they saw Jesus transfigured in glory on the mount. They spiritually saw the "son of man" coming in his kingdom(specifically John.) I assume Jesus was referring to the resurrection on the earlier point, which happened previously to the evangelisation of Israel.
Quote:
Also – could you point me to the verse about the “two witnesses” as I don’t seem to be able to find that particular verse you have referenced? I would like to be able to research your claim further.
Revelation 11, Zecheriah 4
Quote:
Regardless of whether or not Jesus is specifically identified as the man who made the remarks about the earthquakes – he made many VAGUE claims. The same vague claims can be made by anyone, in any generation about wars and kingdoms rising up against each other, famine BUT your Jesus does SPECIFICALLY say that the end will be soon, in the generation of the prophets/apostles and although no SPECIFIC sign will be given to them, here is a list of precursors so they can have confidence the end is near and his coming is imminent. And if this God – sometimes Jesus man – sometime Holy Ghost entity tells one of his divinely inspired and hand picked men that Jerusalem with be devastated by an earthquake, the likes which man has NEVER been seen and there were more devastating earthquakes PRIOR to this prediction and many far more catastrophic AFTER then – well, I am afraid that the veracity of such claims/prophecies/divine revelation is suspect at best and utterly nonsense at worst.
You should read the questions first. Three questions were asked: "When will these things be? What shill be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Before Jesus responds in the Olivet Discourse. That is really the difficulty about it. Because the destruction of the Temple/Jerusalem did occur in their generation, but Jesus did not return at that time with legions of angels or return the kingdom to Israel(whether or not that happened in '48 is a matter of debate).

Besides, you totally miss the point. Jesus said "You shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubed: for the end is not yet." These things are to be expected prior to the end, and we shouldn't worry about it. That's the point.
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