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Old 12-02-2001, 07:24 PM   #31
Bob K
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Part Three

Nomad Quote:
Quote:
Jesus is buried in a tomb, not a mountain.
I have covered this: The expression “confined in a mountain” means descent into the underworld which means the individual confined in the mountain/who descends into the underworld is dead and buried in the aboveworld.

‘Better get this straight: the expression of descent into an underworld means death, by means of death does one descend into the underworld, and when in the underworld, the individual appears to be dead to people in the aboveworld, and the dead are buried in graves/tombs in the aboveworld--they are not in some sort of suspended animation while the individual’s soul goes a sword & sorcery type of hazardous journey to/through the underworld.

Death and resurrection are themes of dying/rising and those themes are present in nonJC myths.

In the British Museum you can find a tablet which contains text relates the story of the descent of Ishtar into the underworld and the resurrection of Tammuz.

You can check it out at

<a href="http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXDB_=compass&_IXFIRST_=1&_IXMAXHIT S_=1&_IXSPFX_=graphical/full/&$+with+all_unique_id_index+is+$=OBJ4548&submit-butto" target="_blank">http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXDB_=compass&_IXFIRST_=1&_IXMAXHIT S_=1&_IXSPFX_=graphical/full/&$+with+all_unique_id_index+is+$=OBJ4548&submit-butto</a> n=summary

Once again, we have chiseled in stone evidence of a death/resurrection or dying/rising mythical element present in a myth preceding the JC myth in time and in proximity to the JC mythwriters.

Nomad Quote:
Quote:
Bel is executed in a sacred grove (and NOT by crucifixion).
You cannot prove that Bel was not crucified. I have shown that the words are Bel was bound and slain/caused to perish, which could easily have been a description of a crucifixion in which Bel was bound to a cross and slain therefore by crucifixion. And I referenced the Xn Babel (Acts 5:30: The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree; Acts 10:39: And we were witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree [emphasis added]) as having made similar descriptions of the execution of Jesus by being slain and then hung on a tree. Apparently the binding of someone is a euphemism for crucifixion--being tied to a tree/cross after execution, or as the means of execution.

Nomad Quote:
Quote:
There is no "Hall of Justice", only a judgment hall, and then only in the Gospel of John.
Denial: You contradict yourself: First you say (A) There is no "Hall of Justice" ... and then you say (B) ... only a judgment hall... .

I have covered all this before: Hall of Justice = Justice Hall = Judgment Hall = Hall of Judgment, etc.

The similarities are too close for you to dismiss them with a mere wave of your hand/pronouncement of words from your mouth.

Nomad Quote:
Quote:
You cannot even establish that the evangelists knew the tablet existed at all, let alone that they used it.
Denial: I covered all this: See your standards for links above and my comments.

However, the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text mystical elements are present in the JC myth, and the proximity, age and precedence of the Bel myth gives good reason to believe that the JC myth is a copycat christ myth.

Nomad Quote”
Quote:
Finally, in one case where I did show you how Langdon’s translation was faulty, you did not even address this point. He thinks that the Assyrians used the month of Nisan in their calendars, but it is the Jews that did this.
Denial: The month of Nisan (Nissan, sometimes Neesan) is the month of April, and Nisan was indeed recognized by the Assyrians.

See <a href="http://www.aina.org/aol/Nissan.html" target="_blank">http://www.aina.org/aol/Nissan.html</a>

Quote:
KHA B'NISSAN (APRIL 1ST)

ASSYRIAN NEW YEAR

Emanuel Y. Kamber, Ph.D.

It was the tradition of our ancestors, the inhabitants of Bet-Nahrain (Mesopotamia), to celebrate the New Year annually on the first day of Nissan (April), a celebration of revival and renewal of nature. This was one of the most important religious and national celebrations held in Bet-Nahrain.
Kamber relates that two myths—the myth of creation and the myth of Ishtar and Tammuz—were the origins/sources of the New Year’s celebration.

Kamber states that the Ishtar/Tammuz myth was the origin of the choice of April as the month for the New Year’s Festival, He also mentions that Tammuz is elevated to the rank of fertility god after his marriage to Ishtar.]

Kamber relates the death of Tammuz and his resurrection under an agreement whereby he spends six months in the aboveworld—the world of the living—starting Nissan/April 1st, the start of spring, when life is fertile and renewed, and six months in the underworld—the world of the dead—at the end of August, the start of autumn.

Kamber relates that the twelve days of the New Year’s Festival included

Nissan Days 1 - 4: Preliminaries such as purification and the recitation of the Enuma Elish.

Kamber relates the fact that “present day Assyrians living in the northern villages of Bet-Nahrain place a bunch of green grass (or NISSAN'S BEARD) on the thresholds or lintels of their houses on the 1st day of Nissan, an indication of green pastures, fertility and prosperity in the new year.”

Nissan Day 5: The king, within the shrine of Ashur/Bel/Marduk, was struck in his face by the high priest, made to kneel and to declare his innocence: "I have not sinned, O lord of the lands ..." The priest struck the king again. If tears flowed from the king’s eyes, this was a sign of coming rains, a good sign. By this ritual, the king was purified and renewed. Meanwhile, out in the streets, the crowds became agitated and emotional—the people ran aimlessly, and cried and lamented, because, according to Kamber, “The god had disappeared, the power of death held him captive in the mountain, nature was lifeless hung in suspense, chaos might be about to return.” Ashur's "tomb" was a ziggurat in which he was “he was imprisoned in the dusty dark of the Netherworld and needed the help of their mourning.”

The tradition of April fool’s day possibly originated on Nissan day 5 when the god disappeared, and chaos was present in the city.

Nissan Day 6: The people gathered along the riverbanks to watch the arrival of the gods, including Nabu, who was to rescue (be a saviour to) his father, Ashur/Bel/Marduk.

Nissan Day 7: Nabu leads an attack on the enemies of Ashur/Bel/Marduk, and therefore implements the salvation of his father and his father’s freedom from the mountain (Ashur/Bel/Marduk is resurrected).

Nissan Day 8: The people are hushed and quiet. The images were of the gods were brought together in the Ubshuukkinna—the assembly place of the gods, ranging in rank facing Ashur/Bel/Marduk and conferring upon him their power, which becomes his power.

Nissan Day 9: The people watch a march of gods and people from the Esagila to the Festival House (Bit Akitu); Ishtar walks with Ashur/Bel/Marduk; the king issues a proclamation; Ashur/Bel/Marduk marches forth, the people kneel before him, aromatic herbs are burned, flutes play, and the people celebrate.

Nissan Day 10: A grand banquet is held in the Festival House; a drama is enacted in which Ashur/Bel/Marduk battles Tiamat, and heaven, earth and mankind are created again, and with the death of Tiamat is the death of chaos and and the re-establishment of order: Ashur/Bel/Marduk leads a march to the city of Ashur “through crowds roaring out their ritual cries of joy.” At night, the marriage of Ishtar and Ashur is re-enacted and celebrated, perhaps with the King and the High Priestess standing in place of Ishtar and Ashur/Bel/Marduk, and “the renewal of all nature [is] secured.”

In contemporary times, Assyrians quite often perform marriage ceremonies on Nissan Day 10.

Nissan Day 11: The gods gathered for determining the destiny of mankind by a ritual which celebrates “the moment when Ashur and Ea killed Kingu and from his blood, they formed mankind... Ea then imposed toil on man and set the gods free.”

Nissan Day 12: Departures of gods and royalties.

Kamber’s References:
Quote:

1. Canoon, Y.N., KHA B'NISSAN ASSYRIAN NEW YEAR, Mordinna Atouraya Magazine,

Volume 3, No. 12, July 1977, Page 8.

2. Contenau, G., EVERYDAY LIFE IN BABYLON AND ASSYRIA.

3. Pritchard, J.B., ANCIENT NEAR EASTERN TEXTS, 3rd expanded edition, Princeton, 1969.

4. Pallis, S.A., THE BABYLONIAN AKITU FESTIVAL, Copenhagen, 1926.

5. Deimel, A., ENUMA ELIS, 2nd edition, 1936.

6. Smith, G., THE CHALDEAN ACCOUNT OF GENESIS, 1876.

7. Kings, L.W., THE SEVEN TABLETS OF CREATION, 2 Vols., 1902.
Note the title: KHA B'NISSAN (APRIL 1ST)

Note the first quote: “It was the tradition of our ancestors, the inhabitants of Bet-Nahrain (Mesopotamia), to celebrate the New Year annually on the first day of Nissan (April), a celebration of revival and renewal of nature.”

Here we have clear evidence that you, Nomad, do not know what you are talking about concerning the use of the word “Nissan” as the name of the month of April by Assyrians. This evidence clearly supports Langdon’s translation.

Note the description of Ishtar and Tammuz and the death/resurrection of Tammuz in a yearly cycle. This evidence clearly supports the idea that Tammuz is a dying/rising god.

Note the description of the elevation of Tammuz to the rank of fertility god. The evidence clearly supports the idea that Tammuz is a dying/rising fertility god, in total refutation of any of Miller’s cites in his copycat christ pages.

Note the reference to S. Pallis, from whence must have come the information concerning the Akitu festival and the death/resurrection of Bel/Marduk/Ashur possibly by means of a transcription and a translation of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text.

S. A. Pallis published a transcription/translation of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text in 1926, the year given for the publication referenced, S. A. Pallis’ THE BABYLONIAN AKITU FESTIVAL, Copenhagen, 1926. That transcription/translation may every well be in THE BABYLONIAN AKITU FESTIVAL, and should I find more information that confirms it, I shall include it in a revision this Reply/Post.

NOTE: C. Walker of the British Museum has offered to send me a photocopy of the Pallis references to/commentaries on the Zimmern and Langdon transcriptions/translations of what I had been identifying as the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text and which British Museum officials refer to as “Marduk’s Ordeal.” Apparently Pallis did not do a complete transcription/translation of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text/Marduk’s Ordeal but offers commentaries on the Zimmern/Langdon transcriptions/translations.

NOTE: The British Museum officials hope to include in the future the Marduk’s Ordeal tablet in their “Compass” index so it can be viewed and its text reviewed online. Nevertheless, the Assyrian Bel myth tablet/Marduk’s Ordeal tablet exists and can be found in the British Museum. It is not some ancient text lost/burned by Xns that can only be resurrected by references found in the works of contemporary authors or in private letters exchanged by contemporary letterwriters. For example, the original texts written by Celsus have been destroyed but thanks to the writings of Origen, who quotes Celsus, in Origen’s work, Contra Celsus, we now have a partial resurrection of the original Celsus text. Since we have the original Marduk’s Ordeal tablet all we need to determine if or not it has mythical elements in its text which are similar to the JC mythical elements is an accurate transcription/translation, and the Pallis commentaries on the Zimmern/Langdon transcrptions/translations may help clarify their accuracy.

Again, see

<a href="http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXDB_=compass&_IXFIRST_=1&_IXMAXHIT S_=1&_IXSPFX_=graphical/full/&$+with+all_unique_id_index+is+$=OBJ4548&submit-butto" target="_blank">http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXDB_=compass&_IXFIRST_=1&_IXMAXHIT S_=1&_IXSPFX_=graphical/full/&$+with+all_unique_id_index+is+$=OBJ4548&submit-butto</a> n=summary

The Assyrian Bel myth/Marduk’s Ordeal tablet text is referenced by S. A. Pallis in THE BABYLONIAN AKITU FESTIVAL, and, since Kamber references the book, we then have a contemporary reference to the Langdon transcription/translation of the Assyrian Bel myth/Marduk’s Ordeal tablet text obviously considered to be of value by a contemporary scholar—E. V. Kamber.

Note also the references published as recently as 1977, clearly indicating that E. V. Kamber did not write this article prior to the 1930s, and therefore indicating that Kamber did in fact write this article post 1977.

Another reference to the fact that the Babylonians named the first month of the year Nisan and to a description of the New Year’s Festival is found in the following by Francis C.S. Butterley:

<a href="http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~nynehead/babylon.html" target="_blank">http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~nynehead/babylon.html</a>

The parallels exist.

The parallels stand.

Nomad Quote:
Quote:
Your arguments are pathetic. Your faith in sources like Jackson and Acharya S is even worse (though in the latter case, it does help to explain your prior crack pot belief that Bel was an example of a crucified god). Your willingness to quote propaganda uncritically is sad. Your presumption that a scholar that disagrees with your sources is likely to be a “hard core religionist” demonstrates the worst kind of thinking (especially as it betrays the fact that you do not even know who these scholars happen to be). You are a committed fundamentalist on this point Bob. I do not debate with such people. Believe what you will, but until you come up with something far more substantial, we are done here Bob.
Attack: My arguments are pathetic. Not wrong because of factual errors, but, simply, pathetic.

Attack: My faith in sources... I’ve got news for you: you have faith in questionable sources like the psychobabble of Peterson and the silly quotes from Miller that corroborate what he, Miller, is trying to debunk. How credible are YOU?!?!?

Attack: Crack pot theory of a crucified Bel ... Unfortunately for you, Bel being bound and slain fits the description of crucifixion by (A) being slain and bound to a tree/cross AS WAS REPORTED IN ACTS (Acts 5:30;10:39) AS WHAT HAPPENED TO JESUS, or (B) being bound to a tree/cross while alive and dying upon the tree/cross, hence being bound and slain. Where I made an error in attributing crucifixion to the execution of Bel nevertheless the description in Langdon wherein Bel is bound/slain fits crucifixion.

Agreement: I AM a hard core fundamentalist when dealing with irrationality and unreasonableness and illogic. You assert, you prove. And you prove by means of facts. You don’t win debates by denial/evasion/obfuscation/attack.

You apparently only want to debate people who agree with you, hence your denials/evasions/obfuscations/attacks in “discussions” with people who disagree with you.

Nomad Quote:
Quote:
P.S. I knew you would not read Miller’s pages. That is unfortunate. My hope is that others will, and in so doing, at least receive some balance to the lies and bald assertions you prefer to offer here.
Denial: I did read Miller’s article.

Here is a quote from one of my previous Replies:
Quote:
Bob K Quote:

You want us to look at ...

<a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycatwho1.html" target="_blank">http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycatwho1.html</a>

... for an article on Copycat Christs, the gist of which is that there are no other dead/resurrected gods other than JC, and that, therefore, JC is not a copycat christ, but, instead, is the one-and-only Real Thing.

Upon glancing through this article it became clear that many of your cites have been directly from this article, but, unfortunately, you focus on whether or not Bel-Marduk was a dying/rising savior god instead of focusing upon what the Assyrian Bel Myth Tablet actually says. As Langdon points out, the Bel Myth tablet gives a dying/rising story for Bel-Marduk in contrast to other stories in the Epic of Creation.
I noticed that all you did was cite conclusions/summaries from the article without citing/quoting the actual arguments of the authors and their ‘proof’ that the Z/L/P transcriptions/translations are incorrect. Thus, all you offer at this point is opinions and no proof supporting the opinions.

I refuted the conclusions in the article as the above quote shows.

For one point of fact, the British Museum does have an ancient tablet with the Ishtar/Tammuz legend inscribed/chiseled in stone.

Again, see

<a href="http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXDB_=compass&_IXFIRST_=1&_IXMAXHIT S_=1&_IXSPFX_=graphical/full/&$+with+all_unique_id_index+is+$=OBJ4548&submit-butto" target="_blank">http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXDB_=compass&_IXFIRST_=1&_IXMAXHIT S_=1&_IXSPFX_=graphical/full/&$+with+all_unique_id_index+is+$=OBJ4548&submit-butto</a> n=summary

This artifact contradicts any claims Miller or the authors he cites/you cite may make which assert that there is no death/resurrection or dying/rising mythical elements in the Ishtar/Tammuz myth.

Nomad Quote:
Quote:
... lies and bald assertions you prefer to offer here.
I have taken considerable time to research issues raised herein and provide not only opinions of cited references but in most cases quotes or paraphrases from those references; therefore, it should be clear that I am not exactly offering lies and bald assertions.

Summary: The Assyrian Bel myth/Marduk’s Ordeal tablet text, chiseled in stone, no less, now present in The British Museum, and dating circa 700 B.C., and as transcribed/translated by Zimmern/Langdon/Pallis, has significant parallels to the Jesus myth; therefore the Jesus myth could have been fabricated from the parallels in the text of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet.

[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Bob K ]</p>
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Old 12-03-2001, 12:12 PM   #32
Nomad
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Talking

Hmm... so this dead horse is still kicking eh?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kosh:

His assertion (and a very solidly argued one)
is that the myth represented on the tablet
has an amazing number of parrallels to the
passion narrative.
Hello Kosh

As I have stated repeatedly (starting at my opening post), there are some generic parallels between the Passion Narrative, and the tablet. What I have also stated is that given sufficient reductionism, ANYTHING can be made to look like anything else. Further, I have pointed out that the translation is so bad, and so confused, that even Bob admits that we cannot know with certainty many of the events or their chronology. Additionally, I have pointed out that the NONE of the Gospel writers used ALL of the parallels listed, so to get the "amazing list" one must create a composite from all four accounts, without bothering to explain, for example, why John mentions a crying woman (a parallel), but the others do not. Or that Matthew has an earthquake, while the tablet has a riot. To Bob and a few others, these do look like astonishing parallels. To me, they look like desperate reaching to try and prove an a priori belief. (Bob is not the first to do this, and certainly this is not the only topic where this is tried. J. Jeremias once tried to show how the Last Supper had 13 parallels to the Jewish Sedar, and that therefore it had to be a Sedar. It turns out that all Jewish feasts had 12 of these parallels, so his hypothesis was rightly rejected). Finally, I have pointed out that respected scholars of every theological stripe have rejected Langdon's arguments, and have done so as far back as the 1940's. Arguments like this do not even show up on the academic radar any longer because they have been so thoroughly debunked in the past. Such is the nature of scientific progress. Once an hypothesis has been debunked, it is rejected, and new debate does not take place unless new evidence arises to show how the old hypothesis (now modified to fit the new evidence) is worth considering.

Go back and look at the "amazing number" of parallels, and you will see things like a judge asking what crimes a criminal has been charged with, a man is executed on a hill (the only place Romans happened to execute people in Jerusalem BTW), more than one criminal being executed at a the same time (though not the same number in the tablet as in the Gospels), burial in a tomb (as opposed to a mountain mind you, and in Jesus' case it was after He was dead, while in Bel's it was before), women at the tomb(astonishing! )...

I hope you get the point by now Kosh.

Quote:
Your attempt at diversion is unfounded. He
does not claim that the gospel writers
"used this specific tablet" as a basis of
their story, simply that the tablet proves
that the myth existed prior to Jesus' time
and therefore could have been available to
be copied.
But this is irrelavent unless we can establish that the evangelists knew of the pre-existing myth in the first place, and Bob has not even taken us this far. A few generic parallels do not help make his case. When we examine a hypothetical example of copying, it is expected that something specific show up. In this case we have no such examples.

Quote:
Fact: The tablet exists
Did the evangelists know about it? It was already 700 years old when Jesus was alive, written in a long dead language, and buried in the ruins of a city that was the capital of a hated and dead empire. Do we have any evidence that they even knew the story related in the tablet? No.

Quote:
Fact: the tablet contains significant parrallels to the gospel passion narrative
No, it contains a few generic parallels, and then only if we accept Langdon's confused translation en toto.

Quote:
Fact: The tablet pre-dates the passion
narrative.
See above.

Quote:
If you still think Bob is claiming they
used that exact tablet, or had knowledge
of that tablet (in contrast to simply having
knowledge of the myth in circulation), then
show us where Bob made that claim.
Bob needs to establish a clear link between the two stories before his arguments will gather any credibility. Thus far he has not even bothered to try.

Small aside, but I found especially laughable his attemtp to seek out "parallels" with the Apostles' Creed no less! It seems when it comes to proving one's agenda, Bob will stop at nothing.

C'est la vie.

Nomad

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Nomad ]</p>
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Old 12-03-2001, 01:18 PM   #33
Kosh
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nomad:
<strong>Hmm... so this dead horse is still kicking eh?
</strong>
I think the more appropriate visual imagery here
is that scene of the Black Knight from Monty
Pythons "Holy Grail".

Bob of course, gets the part of King Arthur...
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Old 12-03-2001, 03:39 PM   #34
Bob K
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Since this Reply is lengthy, it will be presented in two parts.

Part One

Kosh:

Thanks for your support.

Since we agree on many points, there is not much I can say other than thanks, but at least I can say that!

Nomad:

Kosh Quote:
Quote:
His assertion (and a very solidly argued one) is that the myth represented on the tablet has an amazing number of parallels to the passion narrative.
Nomad Quote:
Quote:
Hello Kosh

As I have stated repeatedly (starting at my opening post), there are some generic parallels between the Passion Narrative, and the tablet. What I have also stated is that given sufficient reductionism, ANYTHING can be made to look like anything else. Further, I have pointed out that the translation is so bad, and so confused, that even Bob admits that we cannot know with certainty many of the events or their chronology. Additionally, I have pointed out that the NONE of the Gospel writers used ALL of the parallels listed, so to get the "amazing list" one must create a composite from all four accounts, without bothering to explain, for example, why John mentions a crying woman (a parallel), but the others do not. Or that Matthew has an earthquake, while the tablet has a riot. To Bob and a few others, these do look like astonishing parallels. To me, they look like desperate reaching to try and prove an a priori belief. (Bob is not the first to do this, and certainly this is not the only topic where this is tried. J. Jeremias once tried to show how the Last Supper had 13 parallels to the Jewish Sedar, and that therefore it had to be a Sedar. It turns out that all Jewish feasts had 12 of these parallels, so his hypothesis was rightly rejected). Finally, I have pointed out that respected scholars of every theological stripe have rejected Langdon's arguments, and have done so as far back as the 1940's. Arguments like this do not even show up on the academic radar any longer because they have been so thoroughly debunked in the past. Such is the nature of scientific progress. Once an hypothesis has been debunked, it is rejected, and new debate does not take place unless new evidence arises to show how the old hypothesis (now modified to fit the new evidence) is worth considering.

Go back and look at the "amazing number" of parallels, and you will see things like a judge asking what crimes a criminal has been charged with, a man is executed on a hill (the only place Romans happened to execute people in Jerusalem BTW), more than one criminal being executed at a the same time (though not the same number in the tablet as in the Gospels), burial in a tomb (as opposed to a mountain mind you, and in Jesus' case it was after He was dead, while in Bel's it was before), women at the tomb(astonishing! )...

I hope you get the point by now Kosh.
Nomad Re-Quote:
Quote:
As I have stated repeatedly (starting at my opening post), there are some generic parallels between the Passion Narrative, and the tablet. What I have also stated is that given sufficient reductionism, ANYTHING can be made to look like anything else.
Do you really believe that “with sufficient reductionism, ANYTHING can be made to look like anything else”?

Care to give us examples?

Try this one: The fact is that in WW II Germany was defeated by the Allies--this fact is supported by evidence; reduce this fact by a ‘sufficient reductionism’ that states Germany defeated the Allies and show that this ‘sufficient reductionism’ is supported by evidence, i.e., is true.

Nomad Re-Quote:
Quote:
I have pointed out that the translation is so bad, and so confused, that even Bob admits that we cannot know with certainty many of the events or their chronology.
Denial: I stated that although there are disfigurations in the text of the stone tablet due to unknown causes, which cause disfigurations of the text itself, and the text does not present descriptions of people/things/events in chronological order--meaning stating the facts concerning people/things/events in a textual sequence that precisely parallels the chronological sequence, nevertheless there is a chronology which becomes clear as one studies the text repeatedly.

What you lack is the curiosity to know what the Assyrian Bel myth tablet/Marduk’s Ordeal/VAT 9555 (Svend Aage Pallis’ identification) actually says.

There exists a tablet with a text.

Do you not have any curiosity to know what the words of the text say/mean?

Your lack of curiosity clearly states that you have no credibility in this matter.

Nomad Re-Quote:
Quote:
Additionally, I have pointed out that the NONE of the Gospel writers used ALL of the parallels listed, so to get the "amazing list" one must create a composite from all four accounts, without bothering to explain, for example, why John mentions a crying woman (a parallel), but the others do not. Or that Matthew has an earthquake, while the tablet has a riot. To Bob and a few others, these do look like astonishing parallels. To me, they look like desperate reaching to try and prove an a priori belief.
You have never explained why I must create a composite of the four Xn Babel Gospel Biggies, explain why each item is included in the composite and then, more or less, not only prove that contradictions exist in the Xn Babel but why the contradictions exist, as if I could read the minds of the Xn mythwriters and parrot for the masses their thinking on why they chose certain mythical elements to include in/exclude from their fabrications.

Nomad Re-Quote:
Quote:
Finally, I have pointed out that respected scholars of every theological stripe have rejected Langdon's arguments, and have done so as far back as the 1940's. Arguments like this do not even show up on the academic radar any longer because they have been so thoroughly debunked in the past. Such is the nature of scientific progress. Once an hypothesis has been debunked, it is rejected, and new debate does not take place unless new evidence arises to show how the old hypothesis (now modified to fit the new evidence) is worth considering.
As I have shown, your ‘respected scholars’ as you copied their quotations from Glenn Miller’s Copy Cat Christ article do not actually refute the Zimmern/Langdon/Pallis transcriptions/translations; and E. V. Kamber’s description of the Nisan Babylonian New Year’s Festival includes a reference to the death/resurrection of Ashur/Bel/Marduk, which supports the Langdon transcription/translation and his comment that the only source of the Ashur/Bel/Marduk death/resurrection mythical elements is the Assyrian Bel myth tablet/Marduk’s Ordeal/VAT 9555 text. In addition, I have shown that although Miller pretends that these quotes refute the death/resurrection of Ashur/Bel/Marduk the quotes actually the Z/L/P transcriptions/translations.

You still have to prove that the Z/L/P transcriptions/translations are faulty according to the standards I have established.

The Standards: You must refer to critics who (A) state that the Z/L/P transcriptions and translations are wrong, then (B) cite word-for-word and line-for-line the erroneous transcriptions/translations and then (C) provide word-for-word and line-for-line an accurate/corrected transcription and an accurate/corrected translation--so we can know for certain what the words of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text mean; these “facts” must be agreed to by at least 10,000 other nonXn scholars.

And then I challenged your ‘respected scholars’ by the following long quote from a previous Reply.

Beginning of a long Bob K re-quote.

The following are your copies of Miller’s text in Was Jesus a Copycat Savior? and my comments.

Quote:
"There is no hint of Marduk's death in the triumphant account of his cosmic kingship in Enuma elish......The so-called Death and Resurrection of Bel-Marduk is most likely an Assyrian political parody of some now unrecoverable Babylonian ritual...it is doubtful that Marduk was understood as a dying and rising deity...There is no evidence that the Babylonian Marduk was ever understood to be a dying and rising deity..."
(The Encyclopedia of Religion: "Rising and Dying Gods, by J. Smith, [Macmillan Press, 1987], pg. 523).

"There is no hint of Marduk's death in the triumphant account of his cosmic kingship in Enuma elish......The so-called Death and Resurrection of Bel-Marduk is most likely an Assyrian political parody of some now unrecoverable Babylonian ritual...it is doubtful that Marduk was understood as a dying and rising deity...There is no evidence that the Babylonian Marduk was ever understood to be a dying and rising deity..."
(Ibid. pg. 524)
Problem: The Zimmern/Langdon/Pallis translations all stand as evidence of the Akitu mystic ritual and death/resurrection of Bel-Marduk.

Langdon references small fragments of tablets/texts Rm 275 and K. 9138 from Nineveh in Assyria which prove that the mystic ritual of Bel was practiced there in Nineveh.

J. Smith makes a curious statement: The so-called Death and Resurrection of Bel-Marduk is most likely an Assyrian political parody of some now unrecoverable Babylonian ritual.

By this statement Smith admits there is evidence of the existence of the mythical elements of the death and resurrection of Bel-Marduk but tries to minimize it by saying that it “is most likely an Assyrian political parody of some now unrecoverable Babylonian ritual.”

And then he tries to claim that “[there] is no evidence that the Babylonian Marduk was ever understood to be a dying and rising deity...”

Once again, read and re-read Smith’s statement until you see clearly that Smith writes as if he has seen evidence of the death and resurrection mythical elements in the Assyrian version of the Bel-Marduk myth but that he is trying to discount the evidence as merely being part of a political parody. Thus, Smith contradicts himself.

Further, the Z/L/P transcriptions/translations of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text clearly show death/resurrection mythical elements that clearly show the Assyrian version of Bel-Marduk, called Assur or Ashur, was a dying/rising god/deity regardless of what is the Babylonian version of the Bel-Marduk myth.

And, once again, I remind you that the determination of whether or not the Bel-Marduk death/resurrection myth is a political parody is an obfuscation which attempts to evade the fact that the death/resurrection mythical elements are nevertheless present in the Assyrian version of the Bel-Marduk myth as found in the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text as transcribed/translated by Z/L/P.

Again, regardless of what the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text is, it contains, according to Zimmern, Langdon and Pallis, mythical elements similar to mythical elements found in the Jesus myth.

Quote:
“This interpretation of the so-called enthronement Psalms unfortunately has continued for quite some time, notwithstanding the fact that Assyriologists doubt whether the resurrection of Marduk was in fact part of the cult. It has been shown by W. von Soden (130-66) and P. Welten (297-310) that texts KAR 143 and 219 could not be understood as part of the main festival, and therefore could not be held as proof of the glorious reappearance of Marduk."
[New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis, William A. VanGemeren (gen.ed.). Zondervan:1997, s.v. Melek; note: the Enuma Elish certainly does not describe a death for victorious Marduk, but some have argued that the New Year's festival of Apiku did relate some such story. This is what the KAR 143/210 documents are referring to.]
Note that Van Gemeran testifies that “some have argued that the New Year’s festival of Apiku did relate some such story [of a death for Marduk].” Langdon has stated that the only evidence of the death/resurrection mythical elements of the Bel myth are found in the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text, therefore those “some” in Van Gemeren’s statement must have seen/heard/read the text directly and provided their own transcriptions/translations or otherwise are referring to the Z/L/P transcriptions/translations and are basically agreeing with them.

Note that Van Gemeran stated “...some have argued that the New Year's festival of Apiku did relate some such story. This is what the KAR 143/210 documents are referring to.” From his words, “This is what the KAR 143/210 documents are referring to,” I conclude that the KAR 143/210 documents are indeed referring to the death/resurrection mythical elements in the Assyrian Bel Myth Apiku New Year’s Festival ritual, which would then clearly support the contention that the Z/L/P transcriptions/translations are accurate.

Langdon cited small fragments of tablets/texts Rm 275 and K. 9138 from Nineveh in Assyria as proof that the mystic death/resurrection ritual of Bel was practiced in Nineveh. It is entirely possible that the Bel death/resurrection mystic ritual was not practiced by a majority but nevertheless could have been practiced by a minority.

Quote:
"According to an earlier hypothesis(Zimmern 1918: 2–20; Pallis 1926: 221–43), the New Year festival's cultic drama included another episode, in which Marduk, prior to his battle with Tiamat, was put to death, taken down to the netherworld, and resurrected, in imitation of the cult of the dying god Dumuzi—Tammuz. However, the NA cultic commentary, on which this hypothesis is based, turned out to be nothing but an anti-Babylonian or pro-Babylonian propaganda. The purpose of this text was either to justify Sennacherib's destruction of Babylon and capture of Marduk's statue, in terms of a divine trial (von Soden 1955:51: 130–166), or to explain Marduk's exile and his return to his city, in terms of death, descent to the netherworld, and resurrection (Frymer-Kensky 1983: 131–44). In any case, this vestigial and late addition to the New Year's Day ritual has nothing to do with the motif of the dying fertility god."
(Anchor Bible Dictionary, David Noel Freedman [main ed.], DoubleDay:1992, "akitu")
The more I read this statement the more I notice wordings that indicate clearly that the death/resurrection dying/rising mythical elements were clearly present in the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text.

Quoting Freedman: “The purpose of this text was either to justify Sennacherib's destruction of Babylon and capture of Marduk's statue, in terms of a divine trial (von Soden 1955:51: 130–166), or to explain Marduk's exile and his return to his city, in terms of death, descent to the netherworld, and resurrection (Frymer-Kensky 1983: 131–44).”

I note that Langdon was not referenced by N. Freedman in the above quote. I wonder why, since his transcription/translation follows Zimmern’s but is ahead of Pallis’.

I am not familiar with the phrase ‘NA cultic commentary,’ so if you can translate it, please do.

If it refers to the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text, then the author must prove that the text is propaganda.

Proof would have to include the direct reference to the Bel myth tablet, to the Z/L/P transcriptions and translations, citing lines and words which are not correct, and providing proof/supporting evidence that clearly explains why the lines/words are not correct, and a complete ‘correct’ transcription and translation.

At present we have only an unsupported opinion in the Freedman quote shown above.

I notice that the quote above has both the phrase “anti-Babylonian” and the phrase “pro-Babylonian” in reference to the word “propaganda.” I have to wonder why both phrases are used to refer to the “NA cultic commentary” because I cannot imagine the same ancient text was both pro-Babylonian propaganda and anti-Babylonian propaganda at the same time. I notice that Smith could not make up his mind which is the correct.

If you read carefully, and objectively, you will see clearly that Freedman says that the purpose of the Bel myth tablet text is either (A) “to justify Sennacherib's destruction of Babylon and capture of Marduk's statue” or (B) “to explain Marduk's exile and his return to his city, in terms of death, descent to the netherworld, and resurrection” (note that Freedman does not assert which is correct).

You will see that Freedman admits (A) that the tablet exists, (B) that it was transcribed/translated by Zimmern/Pallis as having the mythical elements of execution/death/resurrection, and thereby Freedman (C) does not claim/assert that the Zimmern/Pallis transcriptions/translations are faulty/incorrect (and therefore Freedman certainly does not prove that the Z/P transcriptions/translations are faulty/incorrect).

You will see that Freedman is admitting that the ritual mythical elements found in the Z/P transcriptions/translations were in fact known and practiced/believed when he refers to the Akitu/Bel myth ritual thus “this vestigial and late addition to the New Year's Day ritual ... .”

Freedman then asserts that the death/resurrection “motif” in the Bel myth “has nothing to do with the motif of the dying fertility god.”

This assertion is an admission, again, of the existence of the death/resurrection mythical elements in the Assyrian Bel myth, just as Langdon transcribed/translated, as did Zimmern and Pallis.

Moreover, the death/resurrection in the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text does in fact relate to the motif of a dying fertility god, and, surprise, Freedman admits it when he writes “The purpose of this text was either to justify Sennacherib's destruction of Babylon and capture of Marduk's statue, in terms of a divine trial (von Soden 1955:51: 130–166), or to explain Marduk's exile and his return to his city, in terms of death, descent to the netherworld, and resurrection (Frymer-Kensky 1983: 131–44).”

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Bob K ]</p>
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Old 12-03-2001, 04:14 PM   #35
Bob K
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Part Two

Continued long Bob K re-quote.

Is Ashur-Bel-Marduk a fertility god?


<a href="http://raven.cybercom.com/~grandpa/mideast.html#A4" target="_blank">http://raven.cybercom.com/~grandpa/mideast.html#A4</a>

Ashur
(Assyria) Chief deity; god of war and fertility.


<a href="http://raven.cybercom.com/~grandpa/mideast.html#B4" target="_blank">http://raven.cybercom.com/~grandpa/mideast.html#B4</a>

Baal (Bel)
(Phoenicia) Baal has the titles "Almighty" and "Lord of the Earth." He is the god of the thunderstorm, war, good harvests, and fertility; the most vigorous and aggressive of their gods. Baal is usually depicted holding a thunderbolt. There is a myth that tells of a challenge to him from Yamm, the Sea God. Armed with magical weapons made by the craftsman god, Kothar, Baal manages to overcome Yamm. Another myth concerns Baal's relations with Mot, god of Death, whom he initially defies, but to whom he eventually succumbs. Anath disposes of Mot, and then dreams that Baal is alive again, and so it is. Mot also returns to life and they renew their war. This occurs year after year, symbolizing the return of the seasons.

<a href="http://raven.cybercom.com/~grandpa/mideast.html#M4" target="_blank">http://raven.cybercom.com/~grandpa/mideast.html#M4</a>

Marduk
The fertility god and the lord of all the gods. In Babylonian religion, the supreme god. Originally, he was a god of thunderstorms. According to Enuma elish, an ancient epic poem of creation, Marduk defeated Tiamat and Kingu, the dragons of chaos, and thereby gained supreme power. Acknowledged as the creator of the universe and of humankind, the god of light and life, and the ruler of destinies, he rose to such eminence that he claimed 50 titles. Eventually, he was called simply Bel, meaning "Lord."

Notice the death/resurrection and dying/rising god mythical elements in the Bel and Marduk descriptions.

Thus, Freedman contradicts himself. The Assyrian Bel myth Apiku ritual does in fact directly refer to a motif of a dying fertility god, in fact, a dying/rising fertility god.

Notice that Freedman quotes Frymer-Kensky 1983: 131-44 as the source of the contention that one of the purposes of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text as translated by Zimmern and Pallis is “to explain Marduk's exile and his return to his city, in terms of death, descent to the netherworld, and resurrection.”

Notice that the Frymer-Kensky cite is from 1983 and is, therefore, proof that scholars as late as 1983 agreed that the mythical elements of death and resurrection are present in the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text.

Quote:
"The category of dying and rising gods, once a major topic of scholarly investigation, must now be understood to have been largely a misnomer based on imaginative reconstructions and exceedingly late or highly ambiguous texts."
(The Encyclopedia of Religion "Dying and Rising Gods", by J. Smith)
Herein J. Smith asserts, to paraphrase, that there are no dying/rising god myths when he says that dying/rising god myths “must now be understood to have been largely a misnomer based on imaginative reconstructions and exceedingly late or highly ambiguous texts.”

Unfortunately, when you read between the lines of the Smith quote you should see that Smith writes as if he has to admit that the dying/rising god mythical elements exist in “exceedingly late or highly ambiguous texts.”

He did not say “The category of dying and rising gods ... must now be understood to have been largely a misnomer based on imaginative reconstructions of exceedingly late or highly ambiguous texts.”

Instead, he said “The category of dying and rising gods ... must now be understood to have been largely a misnomer based on imaginative reconstructions and exceedingly late or highly ambiguous texts.”

The “and” instead of an “of” makes a big difference: it shows that Smith must have seen/heard/known of evidence that the death/resurrection dying/rising god/godman mythical elements were present in the late/ambiguous texts to justify his statement.

Read and re-read Smith’s statement until you see clearly that the reference to late/ambiguous texts nevertheless states that mythical elements of death/resurrection must have been present in those texts regardless of how late or ambiguous they were.

This kind of reading-between-the-lines reveals to me the excellent possibility that even though the Bel-Marduk text may have been “ambiguous” nevertheless the Z/L/P transcriptions/translations were/are acceptable in presenting reasonable evidence of the death/resurrection mythical elements in the Bel myth text.

Notice that Smith did not reference the Z/L/P transcriptions/translations of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text directly and therewith condemn all of them with explanations/reasons for his condemnations.

He writes as if he is aware of the Z/L/P transcriptions/translations of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text and merely tries to discount them by a statement of opinion without presenting reasons for the discount.

It is entirely possible that Freedman intended to write “of” instead of “and” but “and” is what he wrote and thus we must respond to what was written and not what was intended.

Thus, where all these quotes came from the Miller/Copycat Christ website, the fact is that these quotes actually contain evidence of a death/resurrection and dying/rising god mythical element present in the Apiku Assyrian New Year’s Festival Bel myth ritual as described in the Z/L/P transcriptions/translations of the 700 B.C. Assyrian Bel myth tablet text and therefore show that there was at least one dying/rising god mythical element present in a myth preceding the Jesus myth with geography/proximity and history/time factors favoring the likelihood that the Xn mythwriters knew of and used the Bel myth dying/rising mythical element for the fictionalization/fabrication of the Xn Jesus copycat christ myth.

End of long Bob K re-quote.

Nomad Re-Quote:
Quote:
Finally, in one case where I did show you how Langdon’s translation was faulty, you did not even address this point. He thinks that the Assyrians used the month of Nisan in their calendars, but it is the Jews that did this.
I showed that you are completely wrong in your assertion herein.

Bob K Re-Quote: [quote]Denial: The month of Nisan (Nissan, sometimes Neesan) is the month of April, and Nisan was indeed recognized by the Assyrians.

See <a href="http://www.aina.org/aol/Nissan.html" target="_blank">http://www.aina.org/aol/Nissan.html</a>

Quote:
KHA B'NISSAN (APRIL 1ST)

ASSYRIAN NEW YEAR

Emanuel Y. Kamber, Ph.D.

It was the tradition of our ancestors, the inhabitants of Bet-Nahrain (Mesopotamia), to celebrate the New Year annually on the first day of Nissan (April), a celebration of revival and renewal of nature. This was one of the most important religious and national celebrations held in Bet-Nahrain.
As we can see, you deny/evade/obfuscate/attack and when your assertions prove easy to refute your credibility drops to excessively low points.

End of Bob K re-quote.

Kosh Quote:
Quote:
Your attempt at diversion is unfounded. He does not claim that the gospel writers "used this specific tablet" as a basis of their story, simply that the tablet proves that the myth existed prior to Jesus' time and therefore could have been available to be copied.
Nomad Quote:
Quote:
But this is irrelevant unless we can establish that the evangelists knew of the pre-existing myth in the first place, and Bob has not even taken us this far. A few generic parallels do not help make his case. When we examine a hypothetical example of copying, it is expected that something specific show up. In this case we have no such examples.
Evasion: We do not have to prove that the Xn Babel NT mythwriters were aware of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text to observe that there are parallels of mythical elements in the JC myth that are similar to the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text.

Where you claim there are only “A few generic parallels ...” in the Bel myth vs. the JC myth you have not specified how many generic parallels have to be present to clearly prove that the JC mythwriters copied the Bel myth mythical elements.

Further, define “generic” versus “specific” and try to show how the so-called generics are not specific enough for you.

We do not have to have absolutely literal specifics in parallels to determine if or not parallels exist. The death/resurrection and dying/rising god mythical elements are sufficient to show that the JC myth is similar to other pre-existing myths.

If we demand exclusive specifics, then, to run this idea into the ground/follow this idea to its extreme limits, we would have to find the exact JC myth in pre-existing myths, which no individual of reasonable intellect expects to find in reality.

We would expect to find later mythwriters improving their gods/godmen beyond the pre-existing gods/godmen and therefore ‘improving’ their gods’/godmen’s specifics and thereby causing them to be at least slightly different/better than the Jones’ gods/godmen.

After all, if you and I were to create our own gods/godmen and therefore our own religion, would we not want our gods/godmen to be somehow better than anyone else’s gods/godmen?

As long as you keep claiming that there are generic parallels in many pre-existing myths prior to the JC myth that are found in the JC myth you accidentally keep condemning the JC myth to be a copycat christ myth.

Kosh Quote:
Quote:
Fact: The tablet exists.
Nomad Quote:
Quote:
Did the evangelists know about it? It was already 700 years old when Jesus was alive, written in a long dead language, and buried in the ruins of a city that was the capital of a hated and dead empire. Do we have any evidence that they even knew the story related in the tablet? No.
Evasion/Obfuscation: What do we know of whether or not the Bel myth tablet was buried and therefore out-of-sight and therefore not readily available to the JC mythwriters?

You appear to assert that the tablet was in fact buried and therefore hidden and not available to the JC mythwriters but you have not offered any proof of your assertions.

It is possible that the tablet could have been buried and yet the mythical elements could have been passed on verbally.

Moreover, if the Assyrian/Babylonian New Years’ Festival were continued from pre-700 BC to the JC era, because, as Kamber has shown, and as Langdon has shown, the death/resurrection of Marduk is a theme/mythical element present in the Festival, it is entirely possible that the Ashur/Bel/Marduk death/resurrection mythical elements could have been known as cultural elements to the JC mythwriters.

Kosh Quote:
Quote:
Fact: the tablet contains significant parallels to the gospel passion narrative.
Nomad Quote:
Quote:
No, it contains a few generic parallels, and then only if we accept Langdon's confused translation en toto.
Kosh Quote:
Quote:
Fact: The tablet pre-dates the passion
narrative.
Nomad Quote:
Quote:
See above.
Evasion: You have yet to specify numerical standards for the number of generic and/or specific mythical element parallels which must exist between two myths to declare/prove the myths are related and the later copies the earlier.

Obfuscation/Attack: You still keep insisting, without having seen a photocopy of Langdon’s transcription/translation, that the Langdon work is ‘confused.’ I have a photocopy, and I am reporting what I in fact see/read, and it is a fact that although the text does not present the step-by-step chronological sequence a chronological sequence nevertheless exists and can be read directly from the translation without any necessary irrationality/excuses.

the Langdon transcription/translation of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text contains not

Kosh Quote:
Quote:
If you still think Bob is claiming they used that exact tablet, or had knowledge of that tablet (in contrast to simply having knowledge of the myth in circulation), then show us where Bob made that claim.
Nomad Quote:
Quote:
Bob needs to establish a clear link between the two stories before his arguments will gather any credibility. Thus far he has not even bothered to try.
Denial: The whole point of the interpretation of the Assyrian Bel myth tablet text establishes a clear link between the Bel myth and the JC myth.

You still require that (A) we find an ancient text in which an Xn mythwriter confesses that he fabricated the JC myth from pre-existing myths including the Assyrian Bel myth or (B) we clone an Xn mythwriter and torture him until he “confesses” his crime/sin of fabricating the JC myth from pre-existing myths.

How logical is either A or B?

How likely is either A or B to happen?

You keep condemning your own credibility when you deny/evade/obfuscate/attack and do not provide supporting proof of your assertions, and when you do not address refutations of your previous denials/evasions/obfuscation/attacks.

Nomad Quote:
Quote:
Small aside, but I found especially laughable his attempt to seek out "parallels" with the Apostles' Creed no less! It seems when it comes to proving one's agenda, Bob will stop at nothing.
Denial: The Bel myth clearly shows Bel is confined in a mountain, which is a phrase meaning Bel is slain and in the underworld, and this is a clear and obvious parallel to the “He descended into hell” phrase in the Apostle’s Creed.

I cannot understand how you can deny the parallel unless you are doing so not from rational reasonings but from emotional needs to desperately defend the indefensible.

What is indefensible is the claim that there is no confinement in the mountain/underworld in the Bel myth and therefore there is no parallel to the descent into hell/underworld mythical element in the Apostle’s Creed of the JC myth.

The Bel confinement in a mountain/descent into the underworld IS a mythical element which parallels the descent into hell/descent into the underworld mythical element in the Apostle’s Creed of the JC myth.

Again, as your usual pattern of discussion/debate, you provide your opinion but you do not back it up with logical/rational reasonings and credible proof.

You thus keep condemning yourself by your confused logic in your denials/evasions/obfuscations/attacks.
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