Freethought & Rationalism Archive

deank · 10-31-2001, 08:04 AM

Svensky,

Did you read my previous comment (#3) or are you just not interested in talking about it?

Kosh · 10-31-2001, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by deank:
 And as we all know, above us is only sky.

IMAGINE that!

Kosh · 10-31-2001, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by svensky:

Read it. I did find it compelling that a book written over several thousand years is so consistent.

Why so? They've had a LONG time to work
on it's consistency. What would be compelling
is if it had been written QUICKLY and was
so "consistent".

That being said, to many of us, it isn't
very consistent at all.

Quote:

I find the argument for the inspriation of scripture (at least in the origianl manuscripts, as you can guess i dont beleive the copies to be inspired in the same way) to be compelling. The book(s) near as i can tell do appear to have the hand of God behind them.

Since nobody has a copy of the original
manuscripts:

1. How do you know the contents of the originals?

2. How do you know which parts of the current versions are authentic, and which were modified?

Echo · 10-31-2001, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by svensky:
]1) What do you mean when you say the bible is inspired?

The bible is the Word of God. Not the works of humans about God.

As someone else just pointed out, you have answered your own question about the existence of errors in the bible. There cannot be any. If God is perfect, and the bible is his word, then the bible cannot have errors. So if you find a passage that appears to contain a contradiction, then you really have no choice but to assume that there *must* be an explanation that eliminates the contradiction. Thus this whole argument is pointless.

Quote:

2) How did you go about determining that God inspires in this manner?

I actaully read the bible. I have also done a number of comparisons to other religious books, and i do find them wanting. Although to be fair i've only really looked in any depth at the koran and the book of mormon.

3) How did you go about determining that this particular collection of writings is inspired in this manner?

Read it. I did find it compelling that a book written over several thousand years is so consistent. Most other holy books of seen aren't internally consistent and at least with the koran and the book of mormon where handed down in one go (well comparitivly).

I read it, and it didn't strike me as anything other than the work of humans. I'm not sure how the fact that a book is internally consistent points to divine authorship, nor am I sure how the fact that the Koran and BOM were assembled relatively quickly would disqualify them for claims of internal consistency and divine authorship.

Quote:

4} Are any other writings outside of this collection inspired in a similar fashion?

Good question. If you mean inspired as in, should be added to the canon, no i dont think so. I do think some christian authors are inspired by God, but no not really in the same way.

So you're talking about a different type of "inspiration" here. I'm still not sure how one goes about determining when a given work is inspired and what type of inspiration is being given.

Quote:

I know these answers are pretty subjective, but i'm not sure what you where expecting. I find the argument for the inspriation of scripture (at least in the origianl manuscripts, as you can guess i dont beleive the copies to be inspired in the same way) to be compelling. The book(s) near as i can tell do appear to have the hand of God behind them.

Does this answer your question.

Well, yes, it does help me understand where you are coming from, but at the same time it renders the whole biblical errancy discussion meaningless. There can be no errors in the word of a perfect god. So there is no point in asking for a list of errors, because there cannot be any. It doesn't matter if the list contains ten or ten thousand alleged errors. You simply have no choice but to find an explanation for them, because legitimate errors they cannot be.

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Echo ]

Jack the Bodiless · 10-31-2001, 09:11 AM

Quote:

I find the argument for the inspriation of scripture (at least in the origianl manuscripts, as you can guess i dont beleive the copies to be inspired in the same way) to be compelling. The book(s) near as i can tell do appear to have the hand of God behind them.

I note that you still have not addressed the issue of Biblical atrocities. The notion that you find such hatred "inspirational" is chilling.

What is so compelling about the story of a jealous deity who exterminates entire civilizations for such petty "reasons"? Why would any sane person want the OT God to exist?

deank · 10-31-2001, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless:

Why would any sane person want the OT God to exist?

1. They want eternal life.
2. They "need" God.
3. Just plain crazy.

Grand Nubian · 10-31-2001, 02:19 PM

@3D,

I told you he was a monkey.

*the crowd roars* 3D-3D-3D-3D-3D

svensky · 10-31-2001, 03:44 PM

I am really sick of getting insulted while trying to have a conversation. Particulary as everybody seems to think this is fine.

As for the comment about the BOM and the Koran, the quick composition doesn't disqualify them from internal consistency. The fatc that they are internally inconsistent, and the fact that they claim to have been handed down directly from and angel, or translated from huge golden tablets, and then we find inconsistency in them is what disqualifies them.

As for biblical atrocities, do some research, understand the culture, dont just look at something, and claim atrocity becasue you dont like it.

the ancients knew the world was round. you can figure it out easily enough from looking at the horizon. A round earth was common knowledge. As for the bible teaching a flat earth, you cant cite poetry as proof that it does. As i said before, if i say "its raining cats and dogs" it does not mean felines and canines are falling from the sky.

As for needing to explain away all errors therefore this conversation is a moot point. Not so, I am interested in searching, I think it could just as easily be leveled that when looking for errors, with a need to find them to prove the bible errorneous, people find something that look like an error, and then accuse christians of trying to explain the error, when some of the explanations are quite legitimate.

This does seem to be just going in circles though so maybe i will just give up. I have some data to work with, which is what i was looking for.

Thank you to those who have been courteous and provided some converstion.

Jason

Grand Nubian · 10-31-2001, 04:02 PM

Finally the monkey lets go of the goodies so that he is no longer trapped.

ACTS 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

ACTS 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things,

CONTRADICTS:Mt.12:31,Lk.12:10 That says that blasphemy against the holy ghost cannot be forbiven.

WAIT!!!!!!

One scripture says ALL THINGS can be forgiven under circumsatnces and another saying that there is something that CANNOT be for given!!!

*the crowds roars* 3D-3D-3D-3D!!!

The Guy · 10-31-2001, 04:52 PM

svensky, since you are big on context, I would point out that at least for me, I never thought the bible supported the idea of a flat earth until I read Job.

When God finally speaks to Job, he explains the cosmology fairly well. If you read chapter 38 and are still convinced that the earth that the god of the bible is referring to is round, then no other scripture that I am aware of will convince you otherwise.

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10-31-2001, 08:04 AM	#11
deank Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: St. Simons Island, GA, USA Posts: 87	Svensky, Did you read my previous comment (#3) or are you just not interested in talking about it?

10-31-2001, 02:19 PM	#17
Grand Nubian Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: mich Posts: 33	@3D, I told you he was a monkey. the crowd roars 3D-3D-3D-3D-3D

10-31-2001, 03:44 PM	#18
svensky Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Emerald City, Oz Posts: 130	I am really sick of getting insulted while trying to have a conversation. Particulary as everybody seems to think this is fine. As for the comment about the BOM and the Koran, the quick composition doesn't disqualify them from internal consistency. The fatc that they are internally inconsistent, and the fact that they claim to have been handed down directly from and angel, or translated from huge golden tablets, and then we find inconsistency in them is what disqualifies them. As for biblical atrocities, do some research, understand the culture, dont just look at something, and claim atrocity becasue you dont like it. the ancients knew the world was round. you can figure it out easily enough from looking at the horizon. A round earth was common knowledge. As for the bible teaching a flat earth, you cant cite poetry as proof that it does. As i said before, if i say "its raining cats and dogs" it does not mean felines and canines are falling from the sky. As for needing to explain away all errors therefore this conversation is a moot point. Not so, I am interested in searching, I think it could just as easily be leveled that when looking for errors, with a need to find them to prove the bible errorneous, people find something that look like an error, and then accuse christians of trying to explain the error, when some of the explanations are quite legitimate. This does seem to be just going in circles though so maybe i will just give up. I have some data to work with, which is what i was looking for. Thank you to those who have been courteous and provided some converstion. Jason

10-31-2001, 04:02 PM	#19
Grand Nubian Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: mich Posts: 33	Finally the monkey lets go of the goodies so that he is no longer trapped. ACTS 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: ACTS 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, CONTRADICTS:Mt.12:31,Lk.12:10 That says that blasphemy against the holy ghost cannot be forbiven. WAIT!!!!!! One scripture says ALL THINGS can be forgiven under circumsatnces and another saying that there is something that CANNOT be for given!!! the crowds roars 3D-3D-3D-3D!!!

10-31-2001, 04:52 PM	#20
The Guy Banned Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Home Posts: 24	svensky, since you are big on context, I would point out that at least for me, I never thought the bible supported the idea of a flat earth until I read Job. When God finally speaks to Job, he explains the cosmology fairly well. If you read chapter 38 and are still convinced that the earth that the god of the bible is referring to is round, then no other scripture that I am aware of will convince you otherwise.

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