FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Biblical Criticism - 2001
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 05:55 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-07-2001, 08:21 AM   #101
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Maybe because God wasn't powerful enough to tear that Wall down... they had to do it themselves.
 
Old 07-07-2001, 12:35 PM   #102
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Found the Singapore numbers on the Singapore site:

http://www.sg/flavour/profile/pro-people3.html

So, let's look at the numbers:
  • Hong Kong 57% practice no religion
  • Taiwan 14% are atheists
  • Singapore 14.5 no religion
  • China >10% are atheists (2000 State Department figures) By Layman's figures, 146M atheists, 11.5% are atheists. (1.26B people, 1999 numbers)

Of the Chinese states, China has the LOWEST level of atheism.

Wow! If Chinese atheist indoctrination continues, soon there won't be an atheist left in China.

Michael

[This message has been edited by turtonm (edited July 07, 2001).]
 
Old 07-07-2001, 02:16 PM   #103
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by KCTAN:
[B]I'm chinese, if confucianism is theistic, can any of the great learned ones tell me which god am I praying to ?

Layman - I believe its your call ? </font>
Would you please point out where I said Confucianism is theistic? But not being inherently theistic and being inherently atheistic is not the same thing.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">BTW Not all buddhism, Taoism are theistic. Pls kindly find out all the correct facts before stating them as correct facts. Especially refrain from saying what a chinese is or isn't when a chinese is present (unless you are one).</font>
Please kindly get what I have said correct before disagreeing with me.




[This message has been edited by Layman (edited July 07, 2001).]
 
Old 07-07-2001, 03:16 PM   #104
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Amen-Moses:
Quick question that has been bugging me over the course of this thread:

How would one go about indoctrinating a negative?

I mean I can understand Xian indoctrination having been a victim of it, and I can project that to similar belief systems but I can't see how it is even possible to indctrinate a non-belief, surely to do this you would have to actually tell people what not to believe which would have the totally opposite effect. By introducing people to beliefs you face the danger that they will actually have an affinity to those beliefs and want to learn more so the only "atheist indoctrination" that could possibly work would be to not introduce people to those beliefs, i.e to do nothing.

Isn't this exactly the state position of most secular western nations? i.e isn't forced religious education a private issue.

Is Layman really trying to put down communist regimes for doing exactly the same as western secular ones?

Amen-Moses
</font>
You are confucing yourself. Whatever you may think should be happening, or had happened under the former atheistic communist countries, the fact is that they were officially atheistic. That is they posses the affirmitive belief that there is no god. They teach this in their schools and require adherenace to this belief in order to gain advancement in government and/or industry.

So no, this is not the same thing Western nations are doing. In fact, the Western nations of Germany, Great Britain, and the United States all seem to officially recognize the existence of God. Germany and Great Britain have established churches and the national motto of the United States is "In God We Trust."
 
Old 07-07-2001, 03:32 PM   #105
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by turtonm:
Found the Singapore numbers on the Singapore site:

http://www.sg/flavour/profile/pro-people3.html

So, let's look at the numbers:
  • Hong Kong 57% practice no religion
  • Taiwan 14% are atheists
  • Singapore 14.5 no religion
  • China &gt;10% are atheists (2000 State Department figures) By Layman's figures, 146M atheists, 11.5% are atheists. (1.26B people, 1999 numbers)

Of the Chinese states, China has the LOWEST level of atheism.

Wow! If Chinese atheist indoctrination continues, soon there won't be an atheist left in China.

Michael

[This message has been edited by turtonm (edited July 07, 2001).]
</font>
More examples of inconstitent methodology.

Here you seem to equate being "nonreligious" with atheism. I have clearly referred only to atheists. As I informed Rodahi, I have not been counting "nonreligious" as atheists.

But you don't do that here. Here, where higher numbers of atheists would hurt my case and help yours, you see fit to equate Singapore's "no religion" and Hong Kong's "practice no religion" with atheism.

However, when higher numbers of atheists would help my case, you only count atheists as atheists an ignore the "nonreligoius." In Hungary, for example, you only count "atheists" as atheists (5%), but choose not to note that 22% are "defintely not religious." Why? Because to count atheists and "definitely not religous" all as atheists would demonstrate the existence of 3.7 million atheists in the formerly atheistic communist country.

Besides, you haven't given us any state department figures on atheism in China.

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited July 07, 2001).]
 
Old 07-07-2001, 03:54 PM   #106
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Originally posted by Layman:
You are confucing yourself. Whatever you may think should be happening, or had happened under the former atheistic communist countries, the fact is that they were officially atheistic.

= Secular? Aren't we all?

That is they posses the affirmitive belief that there is no god.

Atheism is NO belief not a positive belief, how can you indoctrinate nothing?

They teach this in their schools and require adherenace to this belief in order to gain advancement in government and/or industry.

Big deal, this is exactly what theism has done for a thousand years or more, people can lie you know.

So no, this is not the same thing Western nations are doing. In fact, the Western nations of Germany, Great Britain, and the United States all seem to officially recognize the existence of God. Germany and Great Britain have established churches and the national motto of the United States is "In God We Trust."

And China has a state church, so what? I still don't see the difference.

Amen-Moses



[This message has been edited by Amen-Moses (edited July 07, 2001).]
 
Old 07-07-2001, 04:00 PM   #107
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Originally posted by Layman:
Here you seem to equate being "nonreligious" with atheism. I have clearly referred only to atheists. As I informed Rodahi, I have not been counting "nonreligious" as atheists.

The official UK census does not differentiate, it lists a load of delusions and then has a NONE category, have you any evidence that any of these other countries differentiate? Your 146 million probably consists of 90% agnostic!

Amen-Moses

[This message has been edited by Amen-Moses (edited July 07, 2001).]
 
Old 07-07-2001, 04:19 PM   #108
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Turton, your post is a masterful example of how to argue by using definitional games and inconsistent methodology. Although there is some difficulty in reconciling these statistics and definitions, you've gone out of your way to abuse such difficulties and twist them to your advantage. For example, although I have clearly been defining atheism to exclude nonwestern religions like Buddhism and Confucianism, you count all Buddhists and Confucianists as if they were all atheists. This is incorrect. All of the sources, whether used by you or by me has refrained from oversimplisticly counting all Buddhists and Confucianists as Atheists. The World Almanac reports them in different categories, so does Adherents.com, and so, in fact, do the atheistic communist Chinese who have sought to stamp out Buddhism and replace it with atheism. This is demonstrated by their actions in Tibet: "China has urged the devoutly Buddhist region of Tibet to embrace atheism to counter the influence of the exiled spiritual leader the Dalai Lama and to raise itself out of poverty." http://www.tibet.ca/wtnarchive/1996/10/26_6.html. During China's cultural revolution the atheist communists did seek to wipe out Confucianism, but failed. Even the STATE DEPARTMENT numbers you accept so uncritically distinguish between Buddhism and Atheism in Taiwan.

Moreover, it is clear that many Buddhists and Confuciasts do believe in gods or the supernatural. "But Confucius was worshipped as a deity, although he was only officially made equal to the heavenly gods by an imperial edict in 1906. (Up until 1927, many Chinese offered him sacrifices.)" Rutherford, Scott (ed.) East Asia. London: Apa Publications (1998), pg. 43. Heck you yourself have stated that it can be compatible with atheism and with theism.

Moreover, as I pointed out in a previous post, you have included "nonreligious" or "practice no religion" figures AS atheists when it suits your purpose but refused to recognize the "definitely not religious" AS atheists when it hurts your purpose. I have consistently maintained that I was only counting atheists, and not the distinct group of "nonreligious." Being nonreligous does not mean one is an atheist.


Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Turton:
No, the number is returning to its historical levels because they NEVER WERE ATHEISTS. The Soviet figures are bullshit. In 1991 nobody was answering opinion polls truthfully -- the USSR might return. In authoritarian states people habitually lie to authorities of any kind, including pollsters. The Russia figures were lies. I doubt that more than 15% of the population was atheist even at the height of the Russian Communist oppression of theists.

Layman: On what basis do you arrive at your figure?

Turton in response: Right now, after ten years of church work, there are about 17% or so atheists, according to the sites I referenced above, and that is after four generations of indoctrination. At the height of Stalin's crackdown, that was only the second generation, so lots of old theists must have been lying around still. Surely the figure must lie under 20%, around 15% somewhere. </font>
So the answer is that you have no basis for your figure. Just your guesses that it "must have been" X or "around somewhere."

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">BTW, if you are really happy to consider Confucianism a theistic religion, by all means do so. Since more or less every one in China is Confucian, you have just made everyone in China a theist!</font>
I do not count Confucianism as necessarily theistic. As you have stated, it might be compatible with theism or atheism. But even if I did count them all as theists, or you counted them all as atheists, the total number of such adherents is around 300 milloion (geepers, I had a source for this figure last night, but failed to bookmark the source).

So let's review the numbers:

In China, 146 million atheists (not counting Confucianists and Buddhists as necessarily atheists, although there may be some overlap). 1997 Brittanica Book of the Year, at781-783.

In the former Soviet Union as of 1994 (including the Ukraine, Slovenia, Slovakia, among others): 46 million atheists.

In North Korea: at least 11 million (generously only counting half the population as atheists, although known for being "the first completely atheistic nation on earth").

East Germany: 18 million.

Republic of Czech: 4 million atheists.

Hungary: 500,000. http://www.care.org.uk/resource/ls/ls961209.htm.

Cuba: 710, 000. 1997 Brittanica Book of the Year, at 781-83.

Vietnam: The only numbers we have are that 22.5 million are atheists. http://www.seamist.org/vietnam.htm. You seemed to like relying on these missionary sites when you believe that they are favorable to you (Hungary and Japan for example), but not when they don't help your case. Although I agree that this figure could be high or low, it's a safe bet that there are millions of atheists in Vietnam.

That's a total of 225,760,000 without Vietnam. (About 248 million counting Vietnam)

In other words, it fits in well with what Adherents.com has stated about the phenomenon of evolution.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Estimates for atheism alone range from 200 to 240 million. But these come primarily from China and former Soviet Union nations (especially Russia). Prior to Communist takeovers of these regions and government attempts to eradicate religion, both places had very high levels of affiliation with organized religions (especially Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and Taoism), as well as high levels of participation in and belief in traditional local traditions such as shamanism, ancestor ceremonies, spiritism, etc. </font>
So it seems that this statement from you has been refuted: That is a claim made by Adherents.com. However, they have no number to back it up, which is why it smelled suspicious.

Heck, just counting the former USSR and communist China alone we have 192 million. The Adherents.com statement, far from being "suspicious," is well supported by the evidence.

Much of your response has been to claim that there are higher percentages of atheists in a few small countries than in the former USSR and communist China. But this is irrelevant to my point which is that the majority of atheists were produced in and by atheistic regimes that indoctrinate their populations into persecute theists.

You've noted that 47% of people in Hong Kong "practice no religion." Which, of course, is not the same thing as atheism. Doesn't help ya.

You did provide reliable figures that 14% of Taiwanese are atheists. I'm not sure how many of those grew up in or were educated in China, but it amounts to no more than 3 million atheists.

You've noted that 14.5 of people in Singapore claim "no religion." Which, of course, is not the same thing as atheism. Doesn't help ya. You give no numbers on the atheists.

And as I've explained above, your numbers of Japan are without support and obtained only by wishful thinking. While there could be millions of atheists in Japan, all of the sources you and I have relied on report that most people in Japan are Buddhists or Shintoists.

And there are only 1.6 million atheists in ALL of North America with its 400-500 million people. 2001 World Almanac.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> No, Layman, you don't. And your ignorance is so vast that I have no idea how to begin to correct it. I have already said -- I guess this is yet another example of your inability to read plain English -- that the people on the bottom are sincere. It is the top that is cynically manipulating its followers. Persecution is desired by the Christian Churches as a useful political tool to (1) garner more followers (2) keep the Church united (3) drum up support in the US Congress (4) keep the funds flowing from the US. And other reasons…..</font>
You have continually failed to respond to the reality that the overwhelming number of conversions to the underground Christian church in China are obtained by Chinese evangelism. There aren't white missionaries subjegating local populations. And as to the "missionaries" operating in China, you don't seem to know who they are, much less which ones are working with the official "registered church" (as apparently the Presbytrian Church is) and which ones are working with the Underground Church. I, however, do know who many of these people and organizations are. My wife and I had dinner with a man who has made several trips to China and Vietnam to support the Underground Church just last night. We know he and his family well. I trust him implicitly. Far from being concerned with drumming up support in Congress (for what exactly?), the primary purpose he and the organizations he is serve is to help smuggle in religious literature and teach Bible classes to their pastors. They come at the Underground Church's request. They have no way of forcing their way in or imposing themselves on anyone. I also know a couple who will have or recently will move to China to support the Underground Church. They are not Americans, they are Taiwanese (although they call themselves Chinese, not Taiwanese).

There is no "authoritarian church" behind the millions of Christians in the Underground Church in China. That is a myth of your own bigotry. You are completely ignorant of how it works, who is behind it, and what level of support they obtain from the West.

I will admit this much. It appears that atheism is declining in those countries that have become free, such as Russia and other Eastern European countries. But even so, it remains clear that most of the world's atheists were produced in or by atheistic regimes that indoctrinated their people and persecuted theists. Although I agree with you that China has seen increases in Western style theism during the last few decades, this does not detract from the number of atheists produced during the oppressive atheistic regime.

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited July 07, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited July 07, 2001).]
 
Old 07-07-2001, 04:22 PM   #109
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Amen-Moses:
Originally posted by Layman:
Here you seem to equate being "nonreligious" with atheism. I have clearly referred only to atheists. As I informed Rodahi, I have not been counting "nonreligious" as atheists.

The official UK census does not differentiate, it lists a load of delusions and then has a NONE category, have you any evidence that any of these other countries differentiate? Your 146 million probably consists of 90% agnostic!

Amen-Moses

[This message has been edited by Amen-Moses (edited July 07, 2001).]
</font>
Yes, my numbers for China comes from the Brittanica Book of the Year which diffentiates between agnostics and atheists.
 
Old 07-07-2001, 04:28 PM   #110
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amen-Moses:
Atheism is NO belief not a positive belief, how can you indoctrinate nothing?

You can choose to define it that way if you will. But I was under the impression that what you are describing is agnosticism. The World Almanac differentiates between agnosticism (no belief about God, undecided as it were), and affirmiatve disbelief in God.

Atheism is the belief that God does not exist.

Me:They teach this in their schools and require adherenace to this belief in order to gain advancement in government and/or industry.

Your Response: Big deal, this is exactly what theism has done for a thousand years or more, people can lie you know.

My Answer: I haven't denied this. So what?

Me: So no, this is not the same thing Western nations are doing. In fact, the Western nations of Germany, Great Britain, and the United States all seem to officially recognize the existence of God. Germany and Great Britain have established churches and the national motto of the United States is "In God We Trust."

You:And China has a state church, so what? I still don't see the difference.

Me again: As I described above, China does not have a "state church" as the official church of China. It has a church that it controls so it can actually discourage religious practice. The government in China is officially atheistic and precludes belief in god. China's state church is run by atheists who control their budget, pick their leaders, and control their ideology. Advancement in government or the economy is precluded if it is known you are a Christian.

So yes, it's very different.


 
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:40 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.