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Old 03-01-2001, 03:50 PM   #31
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Layman:

* * *
And I'll ask you a question I asked turtonm. Does MacD claim that the Last Supper, Jesus' execution by Jewish and Roman authorities, his burial, resurrection, and resurrection appearances are derived from Homer? If so, then Paul, John, L, M, and Hebrews stand as independant attestations to many of those events. And I have yet to see any argument that any of those authors also borrowed from Homer.
</font>
From p. 124; "The Last Supper was traditional prior to Mark, as is apparent from 1 Cor. 11:23-26. . ."

McDonald thinks Mark derived much of this part of the Gospel from Jewish scriptures, but links some of the details to Odysseus's supper with Circe before traveling to the underworld.

from p. 162:

"The claim that Jesus had been raised from the dead is one of the earliest of all Christian confessions, and the other three Gospels. . .dramatize the resurrection by having Jesus appear to his disciples. Not so in Mark. None of the Twelve came to the tomb; in fact, Jesus was not there; he had gone to Galilee. . ."

That's enough typing (sorry for any typos I haven't caught). If you have any more questions about McDonald's argument, read the book for yourself.

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Old 03-01-2001, 04:08 PM   #32
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Toto:

McDonald states "Jesus may indeed have been a carpenter, but Odysseus too, was a tektwn; he had invented the Trojan horse and built his own palace." p. 18</font>
I really would like to see Oddysseus called a tektwn by Homer please. I am relying on someone who teaches classical Greek, but he tells me that Homer NEVER does this, period.

So saying that Odysseus built a wooden horse and a palace (and apparantly not by his own hands) doesn't quite qualify here.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">McDonald notes a later scene where the word tektwn is used for Odysseus.</font>
Without actually producing the Homeric quote in context, things do look a bit tenuous here Toto. I'm sorry, but MacDonald needs to do much better here.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In a footnote, McDonald goes through the evidence of embarassment - that Matthew changed Jesus from a carpenter to a son of a carpenter, that other gospels omit the carpentry bit.</font>
Actually, the criteria of embarrassment is used to help prove authenticity, since an embarrassing detail (like Jesus only being the son of a carpenter, and therefore a carpenter Himself) could have been easily NOT mentioned in the Gospel account (just as it is not mentioned in John or Paul).


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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As you can see, (please note, Nomad) McDonald is not a mythicist. He is a Christian who believes Jesus actually existed, and is open to the possibility that Jesus actually was a carpenter.</font>
That's cool, and in the absense of evidence that he practiced any kind of trade besides carpentery, the fact that he is called one (especially since there is nothing extraordinary in the claim) seems pretty reasonable to me.

As a side note, did you know that Paul called himself a tentmaker? Perhaps he wanted to draw a parallel to himself being a lowly tradesman, and his God being of the same social rank as a man. (Yes, its speculative, but so is everything we have seen from MacDonald thus far).

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Old 03-01-2001, 04:13 PM   #33
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bede:
I was hoping for a quote from Homer rather than MacD. </font>
Did you read what I wrote past the first line? I quoted McD quoting Homer describing O's carpentry and using the term tektwn. (I have his book in front of me, but not Homer.)

His footnote is to Odyssey 17.339-41. I haven't checked it out myself.

Other references are to Ody 23.178, 17.266-68, and 22.126-28 155-56 and 257-58 and 23.190-201

He also cites a classical author, Dio Chrysostom, making a point of Odysseus's carpentry skills as part of a well rounded sage, who is not only a most able speaker, but also a practical man and a builder.


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