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Old 09-26-2001, 10:34 AM   #31
handelsskole
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HI.
..As using references to Augustine as Nomad did. Did he not do many kind of bad things..that Augustine guy?..As killing his wife..? Did he not also wait until his death bed before trying to get saved (forgiveness) for his sins?
Wow! I really believe God appreciate people missusing the faith like that. "I kill and rape and everything else evil, and then just ask for forgiveness on my death bed, and then get totaly "clean" in to heaven (If not hit by a car before...) how nice

Of cource, no normal person would act in such a way...

Personally I believe Augustine was an untrustworthy main-jack using religion to get himself a lot of power.. and he was not the only one..
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Old 09-27-2001, 07:56 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Emperor of the Universe:

I didn't wish to attack you, you just made such actions quite tempting. Your statements were so false as to be downright humorous. We can discuss this here or start a different thread for them if you wish.
I understood that you thought my statements were false the first time through EU, and also that you found them very funny. The problem, of course, is that you did not bother to say why you think that they are false.

Since you offered no arguments, then by definition what you did was make an ad hominem attack. That may not have been your intention, but there is nothing else in your post.

So, what would you like to talk about?

Nomad

P.S. To Toto again. No worries on the JM Boards thing. True to form, they found my views offensive, and told me to go elsewhere. I am no longer allowed to post there, so you and those that think as you do are safe once again.
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Old 09-27-2001, 08:13 AM   #33
Nomad
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Quote:
Originally posted by handelsskole:

..As using references to Augustine as Nomad did. Did he not do many kind of bad things..that Augustine guy?..As killing his wife..?
Hello handelskole

I'm afraid you are seriously mixing St. Augustine up with someone else. He was never married for one thing, so it is doubtful that he killed his wife. He did have a son by a mistress prior to his conversion, but he didn't murder her either.

Quote:
Did he not also wait until his death bed before trying to get saved (forgiveness) for his sins?
No, Augustine converted while still reasonably young (age 33), was baptized by St. Ambrose, and served as Bishop of Hippo from 396 until his death in 430 at age 76. Here is a link to a brief biography:

Encyclopedia Britannica Article on Augustine

Before you form your opinions in the future, I would recommend that you find out as much as you can on the subject first. Quite frankly, I have no idea who you may be thinking of here, but it obviously wasn't Augustine.

Nomad

[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Nomad ]
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Old 09-28-2001, 03:28 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Potentially Overweight* Nomad:
I understood that you thought my statements were false the first time through EU, and also that you found them very funny. The problem, of course, is that you did not bother to say why you think that they are false.

Since you offered no arguments, then by definition what you did was make an ad hominem attack. That may not have been your intention, but there is nothing else in your post.

So, what would you like to talk about?
Despite my apparently overly harsh tone, I really do find a conversation with you to be interesting. So, please don't take offense to it. And, since you stumbled into the courtyard and just had to keep yanking my robe about this issue...
Quote:
He is very powerful, yes, and can tempt large numbers of people. Does he do this on his own? I doubt it. His devils appear to do the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale.
Sounds like a kid saying: "Santa can read large numbers of letters he gets every year. But does he do this on his own? I doubt it. His elves appear to do the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale".

Really, how is it that such a powerful supernatural being as Satan, can't pull off all of his tricks himself?
Also, where is it that he gets his demons from?
Quote:
I see no reason to think that science and theology conflict, since they do not.
In case you haven't noticed; science has revealed lots which isn't coherent with a God concept. A chaotic, uncontrolled, cruel, f**ked up universe - was this created by a perfect God? And do we even need to get started on all the claims of theology that science has refuted? Science has been theology's arch nemesis.
Quote:
I am absolutely convinced that Satan is real
Lol! Like a lunatic who is "absolutely convinced" that invisible flying elephants are real.

Why are you convinced that Satan exists? There is no evidence for it, thats for sure, anymore than there is evidence for the existence of the tooth fairy. So why do you believe he is real?
Quote:
Actually, demon possession was only very common when Jesus was here on earth
Oh, how utterly convenient - it was common only when a great lack of reliable sources (newspapers, cameras, tape recorders, scientists, etc.) were around to record it. Its like saying that a fire breathing dragon is in your bedroom, but is 'only very common' when nobody is in there, and disappears whenever somebody opens the door.
Quote:
any plain reading of the Bible and Church teachings will tell you that Satan is real. That is why I believe that he exists
The Bible and Church say it, so you believe it. Evidence and reason don't say it, but that doesn't matter to you, does it? Someone else says it, it must be true. Brilliant.
Quote:
After all, it is only the existence of real sin and evil that could have required the death of our own God on the cross
A supreme creator of the universe is required to die, to stop evil? What for; can't he use his powers to magically speak it out of existence instead?

----------------------------
*Hows that for ad hominem?
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Old 09-28-2001, 08:05 PM   #35
Nomad
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Hello EU

I see that you still do not know how to make an argument. On this basis, the only thing left to do is to agree to disagree. I wish you well, and perhaps at some point you will offer something interesting aside from jabs and insults. Until then...

Good bye.

Nomad
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Old 09-29-2001, 02:55 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nomad:
Hello EU

I see that you still do not know how to make an argument. On this basis, the only thing left to do is to agree to disagree. I wish you well, and perhaps at some point you will offer something interesting aside from jabs and insults. Until then...

Good bye.

Nomad
Is this about the overweight comment? Sorry then. Didn't know you were such a serious person. But, I shall not say it in the future, and will edit it out of my last post if you want, as well as anything else you can demonstrate to be an insult.
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Old 10-01-2001, 01:19 PM   #37
FreeToThink
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I think handelsskole was getting Augustine confused with Constantine, who did kill various relatives and who did not officially convert until he was near death.

Edited to fix coding - F2T

[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: FreeToThink ]
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Old 10-02-2001, 04:21 PM   #38
Jesse
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Nomad:
Hello aikido, and yes, I know that the Bible has presented a developing picture of who and what Satan is, although to call him a counselor is a bit strong. At the same time, any straightforward reading of Scripture is going to show us that Satan is a very real person, and that is standard doctrine in the Church dating back to its origins.

But do you defend a straightforward reading of the Scripture in all cases? Wouldn't a straightforward reading of the Scripture indicate a worldwide flood, earth created before the sun and stars, all sea creatures created before all land animals, and other ideas that you don't take literally? Is your main reason for believing in Satan that this belief is part of the Orthodox interpretation of the Bible, rather than for purely Scriptural reasons?

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: Jesse ]
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Old 10-02-2001, 06:14 PM   #39
ChadD
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Quote:
Wouldn't a straightforward reading of the Scripture indicate a worldwide flood, earth created before the sun and stars, all sea creatures created before all land animals, and other ideas that you don't take literally
The Christian will point out the difference between a "straightforward reading", an ignorant reading, and a reading with ill intentions (reading apart from belief on God); although the two later ones quite often go hand in hand.

In other words, and firstly, there are more types of literature than merely literal, historical accounts.

Secondly, most traditional Christians share a core set of beliefs (dogma), and accept that there are certain issues (doctrine and lastly opinion) where it is generally agreed upon that one's stance on that issue will NOT (edit!) make the difference between damnation and salvation.

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: ChadD ]

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: ChadD ]
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Old 10-02-2001, 07:17 PM   #40
zenman
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Proverbs 15:24

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

It's all metaphysical john clay.

It's all just a state of mind.
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