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Old 02-26-2001, 12:57 PM   #11
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lpetrich

Obviously the Bible Code book you read was not the one true bible code. In the OneTrueBibleCode, you select the bits that reinforce your case, and discard the rest if they do not "predict the past", even if they follow the pattern . (Sounds a bit like another book with which we are all familiar)

And like our old friend Nostradamus, and the prophesies of Fatima, revelation is always revealed retrospectively. So THATS what it really meant when they wrote……...

Norm
 
Old 02-26-2001, 04:16 PM   #12
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lpetrich:
[TrueThinker:]
I think people make the mistake of trying to use the codes to make predictions. That is not what they are for.

[Me:]
LOL!!! Bible codes constitute predictions of events that happened long after the Bible was written.</font>
But the events it predicted happened in the past for this generation. We only know of the events that have already happened that is how they can check to see what the Bible codes say about those events. If you don't know the future, all you can do is make a guess as to what the Bible codes may be saying.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Furthermore, this reminds me of Bertrand Russell's discussion of books about the Great Pyramid of Egypt -- that they always predict the history of the world very accurately up to the date of publication, and that they get much more vague after that point.</font>
Huh? What does that have to do with the Bible Codes?

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">[TrueThinker:]
Which Bible Code book was it that you read? The one by Michael Drosnin? That is not the one to read.

[Me:]
Then which one is???</font>
I personally haven't read a book on the subject. I would be a little suspiscious of someone who tries to use the codes to predict the future, which is what Drosnin does.
 
Old 02-26-2001, 04:19 PM   #13
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TrueThinker:
I think people make the mistake of trying to use the codes to make predictions. That is not what they are for. Which Bible Code book was it that you read? The one by Michael Drosnin? That is not the one to read.

</font>
Yes it was the Michael Drosnin one, which is the one that made the Bible Code famous.(because it came from an agnostic rather than a Jew or a Christian) I did find it interesting that Sir Issac had some conception of the "Bible Codes" before they were discovered, that every event that would ever happen was somehow recorded in the Bible. The "straight" Bible would almost be like a summary of existence, while all other details were somehow coded within. A concept like this could at least make a good sci-fi story, if nothing else. I find the idea very intriguing, but even the Bible Codes don't make such a grand claim.

http://www.prophezine.com/tcode/
I just found this link today which is a rather large archive on Torah Code sites, both in the negative view and the positive. I think the codes are hard to honestly affirm or deny, simply due to the nature ot ELS and the Hebrew language. Proving what is "not" in the codes or "Moby Dick" codes does not conclusively disprove it, and the evidence that would seem to prove it could always be described away as "chance." If people describe away the existence of the Universe and everything in it ultimately to "chance", the Bible Codes will suffer the same fate to most minds.
 
Old 02-26-2001, 04:30 PM   #14
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fromdownunder:
lpetrich

Obviously the Bible Code book you read was not the one true bible code. In the OneTrueBibleCode, you select the bits that reinforce your case, and discard the rest if they do not "predict the past", even if they follow the pattern . (Sounds a bit like another book with which we are all familiar)

And like our old friend Nostradamus, and the prophesies of Fatima, revelation is always revealed retrospectively. So THATS what it really meant when they wrote……...

Norm
</font>
Where are you getting this from? I am not saying that there is only "OneTrueBibleCode." Sad, but most see the Drosnin book as the only true Bible code book. They use that book as their basis for attack on the Bible Codes phenomenon although it is not the only one on the subject.

I am only suggesting it may be a better idea to read books by statisticians/ mathematicians who discard the codes or those who believe they are legit, not someone who is interested in using it as a future-predicting device.

 
Old 02-26-2001, 04:48 PM   #15
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by smugg:
But, most of those assassins were obsessed and Moby Dick was all about blind obsession and how destructive it is. Coincidence? Of course not! They must be true! Bow down and beg forgiveness from the Great White Whale!</font>
What are you talking about?
 
Old 02-26-2001, 07:20 PM   #16
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TrueThinker:
What are you talking about?</font>
Just following your logic (as if that term could ever be applied to magical thinking) that if the code is contained inside text it possibly applies to, it must be more valid than other codes.
 
Old 02-26-2001, 11:53 PM   #17
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[Bible codes as predictions...]
[TrueThinker:]
But the events it predicted happened in the past for this generation. We only know of the events that have already happened that is how they can check to see what the Bible codes say about those events. If you don't know the future, all you can do is make a guess as to what the Bible codes may be saying.

[Me:]
Which make Bible codes useless as predictors.

[Me earlier:]
Furthermore, this reminds me of Bertrand Russell's discussion of books about the Great Pyramid of Egypt -- that they always predict the history of the world very accurately up to the date of publication, and that they get much more vague after that point.
[TT:]
Huh? What does that have to do with the Bible Codes?

[Me:]
It's a simple illustration of the track record of similar sorts of predictions.

[TT:]
I personally haven't read a book on the subject. I would be a little suspiscious of someone who tries to use the codes to predict the future, which is what Drosnin does.

[Me:]
And why is one to be suspicious? Because Bible codes can only be found if one knows what to look for? And I've yet to see any evidence that Bible codes are fundamentally different from Moby Dick codes. Yes, one can find lots of "predictions" in that novel with Bible-code methods.
 
Old 02-27-2001, 01:28 AM   #18
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Truethinker: "There is a code about Hitler and the Nazis within a passage where Moses is prohesying about a nation that would heavily torment the Jews"

What exactly did the 'code' say and what exactly did the verse say? How do you combine Hebrew letters to form the word 'Nazi' and 'Hitler'? Is it possible to find the same 'code' anywhere else in the Bible? Are there any other verses that suggest that Jews will be tormented? Do they all mention Hitler? What is the statistical probability in a document with hundreds of thousands of characters and a near infinite number of ways of combining them into 'codes' that you could find the occasional word or phrase that reminds you of something or someone that might have something to do with the idea talked about in a nearby verse?

What would evidence of God-inspired codes look like? You would pick a specific method. You would start writing down every 50th (or whatever) character and out comes (translated, of course) "In a great world war, a man named Hitler will kill millions of Jews. This is your punishment for not killing all the Canaanites like I told you to." That would be convincing.
 
Old 02-28-2001, 11:59 AM   #19
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Please read this article I came across.

Curb Your Dogma, Please!

The following reprint from the November, 1999 Bible Code Digest describes the metamorphosis of a mathematician from skeptic to supporter of the validity of some Bible codes.

Should anyone take seriously the notion that numerous codes about 20th century people and events can be found in an ancient Hebrew text? Isn’t it appropriate to choke on the idea that codes about Hitler, Clinton, the assassinations of Kennedy and Rabin, the Oklahoma City bombing, major earthquakes, the 1929 crash and the Gulf War were intentionally embedded into the fabric of Hebrew letters that Moses and other Jewish prophets set to papyrus far back in B.C. times? That is how many have reacted to Michael Drosnin’s book, The Bible Code.

Aren’t there occasions when being open minded is foolish? Two years ago I rejected that thought, choosing to take on the scientific challenge of probing the whole matter. Today I stand dumbfounded, a former skeptic turned reluctant convert. What changed my mind? It was things like the cluster of eight codes about Hitler that appear in a text where Moses prophesies that in the latter days a nation will rise up and torture and slaughter Jews on a mass scale. It was also a second cluster of nine codes about Hitler and a very tight cluster of five codes about Einstein that were mind blowing. One can only wonder if Nostradamus has been seriously upstaged.

So, what are these “codes”? They are equi-distant letter sequences. You get them by eliminating the spaces between Hebrew words and looking for words that could be formed from letters that are equally spaced within the source text. For example, within the sentence, “All of our avenues are wide,” is the code “love.” It starts with the second letter and appears when we skip 3 letters between successive code letters:

a L l o f O u r a V e n u E s.

Any given code could have a skip of any fixed length. It could either be forward or backward.

Scientific theories rise and fall based on how well they fit the data. What if we encounter data that conclusively and flatly contradicts our over-arching assumptions about life? Will we probe the matter further or choose to relegate it to the graveyard of unexplained mysteries?

I’m convinced that dogmas rove unleashed within souls of every breed. Yes, even in this enlightened age, this sad proclivity endures. The time-honored admonition, “Curb your dogma, please!” is not outmoded. The stuff from which hatred and wars spring persists like crabgrass in spite of the best efforts of educators and reformers. While probing this unthinkable phenomenon, I’ve had abundant opportunity to learn this afresh.

First I encountered the plain ugliness of my own utterly closed mind. How inexorably I had leaped to a hardened conclusion. The only thing that kept me from walking away was the personal challenge as a professional mathematician of 26 years—could I come up with a way to figure out the odds that any one of Drosnin’s examples could be coincidental? In surmounting that hurdle a bundle of precise equations emerged. Upon receiving Hebrew code search software, the testing began. I had to fight my urge to imagine what the test results had to be. The healthy desire to objectively evaluate straightforward evidence was throttled before it could thrive.

What rigid coping mechanisms people deploy. Curiously, some fundamentalist Christians shudder at the thought that new truths might be unearthed from their sacred book. If they believe that God wrote the Bible, wouldn’t they also have confidence that God controlled whatever codes might exist within it?

Rigidity isn’t limited to the religious right, however. The intellectual elite of our age have a gut jerk reaction to anything that hints that the Bible might be more than a revered collection of myths. What if some of the codes were so outrageously improbable that we are left staring at the inescapable conclusion that some of them must be intentional? Perish the thought! Surely such an affront to the wisdom of this age must lack all substance. Who needs to test such a hypothesis? It cannot be true. Isn’t that self-evident? Therein the enlightened dogmas of the elite show forth their bulldog tendencies.

Many suspect there must be an infinite number of codes that could be extracted from any text. Therefore, you can find as a code whatever you are looking for. This is a neat way to take a leap of intuition and land squarely on your assumptions. In reality, the number of codes that can be extracted from the Bible is very much less than infinite—large though it is.

Whatever happened to the honest search for truth? Even though scientific testing of this phenomena is very straight-forward, there is only dogma-serving rhetoric. What differs is the breed of dogma. Is it religious or enlightened?

In the past three years books by atheists, Jews and Christians have been published on the controversy. Some Jews use the codes to “prove” that Jesus was a false messiah while some Christians use other codes to “prove” the exact opposite. This leaves the impression that Bible codes could buttress any perspective. If we limit ourselves to those few codes that are astonishing, however, this seeming contradiction disappears. When we do that, we find that many codes that have been characterized as amazing are highly likely to be coincidental—the kind you could find in about any book in any language. There is no point wasting time studying such things.

What has totally astonished me, however, is that many clusters of codes are so improbable that there is no way that all of them could be coincidental. This is my conclusion as a professional mathematician. It is also that of other mathematics professors. We aren’t talking here about opinions, but about cold, hard calculations and readily available evidence.

When something is a one-in-a-million long shot, we can still argue that long shots do happen. When the odds are less than one in a trillion times a trillion, and there are several clusters that are far more unlikely than that, coincidence fails as an explanation.


 
Old 02-28-2001, 12:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PhysicsGuy:
Truethinker: "There is a code about Hitler and the Nazis within a passage where Moses is prohesying about a nation that would heavily torment the Jews"

What exactly did the 'code' say and what exactly did the verse say? How do you combine Hebrew letters to form the word 'Nazi' and 'Hitler'? Is it possible to find the same 'code' anywhere else in the Bible? Are there any other verses that suggest that Jews will be tormented? Do they all mention Hitler? What is the statistical probability in a document with hundreds of thousands of characters and a near infinite number of ways of combining them into 'codes' that you could find the occasional word or phrase that reminds you of something or someone that might have something to do with the idea talked about in a nearby verse?

What would evidence of God-inspired codes look like? You would pick a specific method. You would start writing down every 50th (or whatever) character and out comes (translated, of course) "In a great world war, a man named Hitler will kill millions of Jews. This is your punishment for not killing all the Canaanites like I told you to." That would be convincing.
</font>
Well, you've got the right idea. This article I found tells where those codes are. There are some in other locations in the Old Testament. Here's the article:

Holocaust Codes Found in Several Torah Locations
A large number of codes about the Holocaust and the extermination of more than 6,000,000 Jews is emerging like a horrible specter from three significant portions of the Torah text.

Termed by some researchers “the Hitler codes,” ELSs naming the top Nazi and other leading figures from this most wretched period of human history plus a number of words unmistakably and forever tied to it have been found in Genesis 8, Deuteronomy 8-10 and Deuteronomy 30-33.

Hitler, Himmler, Eichmann, Auschwitz, Nazi, Germany, evil man, Zyklon B and other finds have already been published by authors such as Michael Drosnin, Grant Jeffrey and Jeffrey Satinover.

Many New Codes Discovered
Our own research has so far turned up many new ELSs in these passages, including Nazi and Enemy horrible shower, incinerator, asphyxiation, deport, dictator, Bergen-Belsen, Poland, genocide, fuhrer, crematorium, slaughterer, horror, Birkenau, anti-semitic and Mein Kampf.

Perhaps the strongest connection between these codes and the literal text above it takes place in the Deuteronomy 30-33 passage, which describes Moses’ farewell to the chosen people as they are about to wind up a 40-year trek through the wilderness. (The most relevant text is in capitals.)

“For I know that after my death you will . . . turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; AND EVIL WILL BEFALL YOU IN THE LATTER DAYS.” (Deuteronomy 31:29) This could have been referring to the ravages of the Jews by either the Babylonians or the Nazis, or both.

He continues, “They shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction . . . the sword outside, and terror inside, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also along with the man with gray hairs.” (Deuteronomy 32:24-25)

Genesis Cluster Powerful
At the present it appears that the Genesis 8 cluster is the most impressive, but we are still performing research on the other clusters in Deuteronomy. We hope to post a color graphic of the Genesis 8 cluster on this page by the end of September. In a 31-letter per line matrix, it clearly shows the density of codes including not only Hitler and Nazi and enemy, but Holocaust, 1939-1940, Mein Kampf and several others.

Go to http://www.thebiblecodes.com/feature/index.htm

There is an interesting article about the 'alliance of evil' that 'did not prevail' in 'the year 5705'. There also other articles about the Hitler codes that might be of interest to you. Let me know what you think.

[This message has been edited by TrueThinker (edited February 28, 2001).]
 
 

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