Extremely unlikely. There are too many incongruities between the xian crucifixion, and the Odin story.

* Odin is not a criminal being punished
* Odin's wounds are self-inflicted
* Odin's wounds are done for personal gain (runes and wisdom)
* Odin rescues himself off the tree after 9 nights


http://etext.virginia.edu/journals/E.../browne34.html
In addition, there is ample precedent in Germanic mythology and the shamanistic world-view for such an action. The tree as the source of life and the method of transportation (via trance state, or "spirit journey") to the other realm concurs with other Finno-Baltic influences, as well as with the shamanistic beliefs of several Asian peoples. Odin's position as the god of magic and god of hanged men is totally in keeping with this event, and no xtian influence is necessary to explain it.

Also, the name of the tree upon which Odin hung himself is Yggdrasil, which is translated as "horse of Ygg". The name "Ygg" being another name for Odin. Criminals who were hanged (on trees) in Scandinavia were said to be "riding" the tree. Additional supporting information comes from outside witnesses, who indicate that hanging men in the branches of trees was a common punishment method, and had sacrificial overtones. Adam of Bremen describes the pagan temple at Uppsala in this way:


Also note that the myth itself does not date to the 10th century; merely the first writing down of the Havamal itself.


In case anyone is curious, here are the appropriate passages that describe this story. It is quickly obvious from the text that this is not a xtian borrowing. There are such borrowings in Sturlafson's writings; but Odin hanging himself on Yggdrasil is not an example of one.

Hi Omnedon, it is much the same as our mythology and does not have to be borrowed because if salvation is native to man the method will also be the same but the description will be different for many reason but mostly because it is local and will therefore be described from a local point of view. This, for example, is why Mary always appears as a "local girl" to those who see her.

The method will be the same because it will always be the case that the conscious mind must be beyond theology before the subconscious mind can overpower it. This battle can take place in our mind and is best to take place at midlife (menopause).
Here is my take on your poem and it would have been nice if I was familiar with the names.

I know that I hung
On a wind-rocked tree*
Nine whole nights,
With a spear wounded
And to Odin offered,
Myself to myself;
On that tree
Of which no one knows
From what root it springs.

Amos These 9 whole nights are rebirth between Christmas and epiphany. They are nights because of the depths of despair (midnight- midwinter-midlife), and to Odin offered myself to myself means that I surrendered all including the I and was therefore beyond theology to not understand from what root that tree sprung. We say that salvation must come as a thief in the night and cannot even have one eye asquint towards it or we will not last for nine days until the Magi arrive. So as I see it they do not resemble crucifixion but rebirth.

2)Bread no one gave me
Nor a horn of drink,
Downward I peered,
To runes applied myself
Wailing learnt them,
Then fell down thence.

After rebirth we are on our own, religion has seved its purpose, no more bible to read or church to attend because religion is a means to an end and we now ought to write our own gospel. The bible will be second hand (posterior) to us and its content prior to us by nature. "Downward I peered, to ruines applied myself wailing learnt them, then fell down thence." Beautiful line Onmedon, absolutly gorgeous, but compare this with Goldings description of the same thoughts and see how similar they are "For the tower was to rise another eighty feet in another chamber, with more lights, more hosanning heads, more platforms and ladders, so that the mind winced to think of it; winced at any rate up here, where solidity balanced in midair among the birds, held its beath over a diminishing series of squares with a round hole at the bottom which was nevertheless the top" (The Spire page 111 faber and faber).(A whole book can be written about this line of Golding and your poet tells us the same in 14 little words when he abandonned his own ivory tower which once was the pride of his life now let go as if ruins to return to the place he first started. In Christianity this is the home town of Joseph the upright carpenter who went there to give an acount of himself when his rebirth took place.

3)
Potent songs nine
From the famed son I learned
of Bolthorn, Bestla's father,
And a draught obtained
Of the precious mead,
Drawn from Odroerer.

New creation, a new song learned from son of Man "in the reign of God" about God and a genuine curiosity to learn more about life in this new mode of existence.
4)
Then I began to bear fruit
And to know many things,
To grow and well thrive:
Word by word
I sought out words,
Fact by fact
I sought out facts.

The awakening of the philosophic mind or mind of God in this new world.

Amos

Good question Brighid but what is wrong with the earth that it should be saved? It is our own world that we should be saved from to regain paradise on earth and all of the above (I admire your scope of knowledge here) accomplished this and testify that it is possible also for us.

The world is needed to make salvation possible because involution must preceed evolution. The virgin birth, suffering, death, resurrection are all expressions of spiritual events because only the ego consciousness was crucified. Perhaps best explained as follows: when the ego raptures that which remains is in Paradise or Nirvana or Elysium.

We are in primitive stages but only because we are in oblivion to our own "thousand year reign" that resides in our own mind. If only we could find a way to unite our twain mind and make conscious our subconscious mind without a mystery religion we would have no need for God or religion. The question then would be: who will procreate the next generation because only 'the world' is able to do this (heaven is post meno-pause). So, in my view Brighid, it is during our involutionary period that we must create and color our own heaven and the best we can hope for is that we will live to enjoy our own creations in heaven while here upon earth ("Yes, they shall find rest from their labors, for their good works accompany them" Rev.14:13).

Amos



[This message has been edited by Amos123 (edited May 08, 2001).]

My mentioning of the Odin story was not intended to be some sort of "proof" linking the Jesus story to other myths. It was only to demonstrate that the idea of a god hanging from a tree who has had his side pierced by a spear is not a unique event. I am unwilling to comment on a definitive link between the two stories. I do think it is reasonable to assume the Odin story came first. I do know that carvings of a one eyed god (as Odin was) having his tongue hanging out (denoting he had been hung) have been found throughout Scandinavia. The exact age of them I cannot recall at the moment; however, if memory serves me correctly they do predate the arrival of Christianity within the region.

What influences did other myths have on the Christian myths? We do know that many aspects of the Jesus story are not without precedents in other tales from different regions. The dying god is probably one of the oldest motifs in religion.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but was not Jesus's first miracle turning water into wine? (It may have been feeding the people with two loaves of bread, I am too lazy to go grab a bible. ) Regardless, let us think about this in context with Dionysus, another dying god. Dionysus being a god of intoxication and having an association with wine has a point of commonality with Jesus. Why would Jesus have an association with wine? More to the point, why at the last supper does Jesus tell his disciples to drink wine saying it is his blood? Let us also think about the estactic nature of Jesus' followers in the Book of Acts when the Spirit comes upon them and they "speak in tongues". It brings to mind stories of Dionysiac orgies which were also very estactic in nature.

In my opinion, early Christianity was definitely geared more to a Roman audience than to a Jewish one. Along the way though something happened and we have current Christianity which completely denies any "pagan" origin.

regards,

red dawn

One other point...

The appeal of the Mystery religions was that because the divinity being worshipped had conquered death it gave hope that others could conquer it as well. This is the appeal of Jesus. Christians believe that because he rose from the dead we can all be raised from the dead and escape the annihilation of our conciousness. The story of Christ is not unique, what was unique about it was the patronage it recieved from the Roman throne from Constantine onwards. This allowed this one particular Mystery religion to persecute and eventually eliminate all other competitors.

regards,

red dawn

Amos,

“We are in primitive stages but only because we are in oblivion to our own "thousand year reign" that resides in our own mind. If only we could find a way to unite our twain mind and make conscious our subconscious mind without a mystery religion we would have no need for God or religion. The question then would be: who will procreate the next generation because only 'the world' is able to do this (heaven is post meno-pause). So, in my view Brighid, it is during our involutionary period that we must create and color our own heaven and the best we can hope for is that we will live to enjoy our own creations in heaven while here upon earth ("Yes, they shall find rest from their labors, for their good works accompany them" Rev.14:13).”

If we were to unite our conscious minds and our subconscious minds then the need for god and religion would cease to exist? Okay – let’s say this is plausible conclusion. I would then say it is because our conscious and unconscious minds are separate that man has created the gods, but that outside of this unharmonious and broken state that the gods do not exist. They are simply figments of a disenfranchised consciousness – illusionary and archetypal and nothing more then a method to achieve a higher state of consciousness. It is because our evolutionary stage is so young that we feel the broken need to create something that does not exist in order that we may achieve something we perceive is beyond our natural reach (and therefore, supernatural.) Except that it is right in front of our faces, completely within our control, but we are blinded by faith and cannot see what is inherent in all humans.

If this is your position and religion is the vehicle to the unification of these two states, then it really does not matter what religious vehicle you use, just that you obtain this state of unification and surpass the need for illusionary objects to meditate upon.

So, Christ or Buddha, Krishna or Allah - all become irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Brighid

If we were to unite our conscious minds and our subconscious minds then the need for god and religion would cease to exist? Okay – let’s say this is plausible conclusion. I would then say it is because our conscious and unconscious minds are separate that man has created the gods, but that outside of this unharmonious and broken state that the gods do not exist.

Brigid, I would say that the above is correct except that our conscious and subconscious minds are twain instead of twin or inspiration or even angelic forces would not be possible. And yes, when paradise is regained we are equal to God and there is no longer a need for God. We will then be solitary individuals, non-social and have no need for "outer direction." Of course there will always be greater Gods (greater mansions (Revelation ?) but we will know all of that which we have knowledge. We will then know our own mind, or "know thyself and do what you want" (Augustine wasn't it?)

They are simply figments of a disenfranchised consciousness – illusionary and archetypal and nothing more then a method to achieve a higher state of consciousness. It is because our evolutionary stage is so young that we feel the broken need to create something that does not exist in order that we may achieve something we perceive is beyond our natural reach (and therefore, supernatural.) Except that it is right in front of our faces, completely within our control, but we are blinded by faith and cannot see what is inherent in all humans.

I would object to "our evolutionary stage is so young" because it will be during our involutionary stage (yin) that we are in oblivion (and hence the supernatural). It is right in front of our face but it is not available to our conscious mind except through inspiration, or illumination. Apart from this, there may be a time when "the rout of creation" itself IS between our conscious and subconscious mind. If here our conscious mind is the negative stand (sic) and our subconscious mind is the positive stand renewal of our mind will take place (Dostoevski's "Grand Inquisition." It is also not completely within our control because that is what Determinism is all about. Determinism holds (my argument) that we can only be truly free (Freeman) if we are of "one mind" because otherwise our subconscious mind will always have some influence upon our volition.

If this is your position and religion is the vehicle to the unification of these two states, then it really does not matter what religious vehicle you use, just that you obtain this state of unification and surpass the need for illusionary objects to meditate upon.

So, Christ or Buddha, Krishna or Allah - all become irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

It gets better Brighid because life itself will no longer be an illusion. We, just like Christ and Mary, or Krishna and Arguna will see and know all things eidetically because we will have noetic vision. Yes religion as a means to an end often leads to Pantheistic minds (not -isms) who "will do greater things."

Thomas Hardy wrote a poem along the lines of the (unsinkable) Titanic on this. I add the word unsinkable because that is how our human pride seems to be until . . . . The poem is called: "The Convergeance of the Twain: Lines on the Titanic." More interesting is that Mr. Earl Doherty and associates (I think Van Manen in particular of "Higher Biblical Criticism" used a poem by Thomas Hardy as proof against the existence of God. Hardy wrote this poem when he said his farewell to religion because it had served him so well. Once again here I am reminded of Spinoza and Einstein.

If you wish I can direct you to them some other time.

Amos


[This message has been edited by Amos123 (edited May 09, 2001).]