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Old 07-20-2001, 07:33 AM   #11
smugg
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Whew, thank you guys for backing me up. You can't support any of these claims! At least Les has admitted he makes it up.

Offa, you can't support many of your claims, you're just misreading the Bible. To take a specific example, the book of John clearly says Cleophas was Jesus' uncle and not his father. Now, I don't think the Bible is infallible or anything, but the fact is you've just misread the passage!

Another quick point: media commentors do not interpret presidential speeches' secret language!
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Old 07-20-2001, 07:48 AM   #12
Kosh
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Quote:
Originally posted by Les Benton:
<STRONG>Offa, I have said on several of my posts that Jesus was alive as late as 70. [snip] But it was not suicide. There was a big bounty on her head.</STRONG>

&lt;As I drop into character of my namesake
from Babylon 5...&gt;

Commander Sheridan: Kosh, what are you reading?

&lt;a complex series of musical tones
emitted from the encounter suit, the
english tanslator kicking in to issue
a single Human word...&gt;

Kosh: &lt;b&gt;Fiction.&lt;/b&gt;

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Old 07-20-2001, 09:13 AM   #13
offa
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Quote:
Originally posted by smugg:
<STRONG>
Offa, you can't support many of your claims, you're just misreading the Bible. To take a specific example, the book of John clearly says Cleophas was Jesus' uncle and not his father. Now, I don't think the Bible is infallible or anything, but the fact is you've just misread the passage!
</STRONG>
Offa; The Book of John clearly denotes two
women at the cross and these two women are the one's he instructed John to care for after the crucifixion. Mary, the wife of Cleophas, and the Virgin Mary are the same person. The Virgin and Mary Magdalene were sisters of the cloth. The other gospels were written afterward.
Quote:
Originally posted by Smugg<STRONG>
Another quick point: media commentors do not interpret presidential speeches' secret language!</STRONG>
What I am saying is that the commentators are necessary for fundamental listeners and they reiterate the ideal language used by the president. It is a silly game. He who hath ears let him listen!

Thanks, offa
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Old 07-20-2001, 09:24 AM   #14
Les Benton
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Smugg, it's a fact that Augustus and Cleopatra had a son together in Rome at the time of Jesus's birth. Since Caesar was the god of the Romans and Cleopatra was the goddess of the Egyptians, and their son would be by birthright the god of both.
I made it up that Jesus was their son. Just a guess.
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Old 07-20-2001, 09:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Les Benton:
<STRONG>
Where we differ is on Jesus's parents. I believe that there were two persons alive then that had the power and credability to put the christian package together. That woud be Augustus and Cleopatra. They had one begotten son. His name was Ptolemy Caesar. His birhtright was Pharoah of Egypt and Emporer of Rome. His biblical name was Jesus. My reason for believing that it was Cleopatra is because when his mother learned that the Jews were seeking to kill her son she fled with him to the safety of Egypt.
He was about 14 then. </STRONG>
It is my understanding that Cleopatra died in 31 b.c.e. She was Julius Caesar's mistress and she did have a son by him. Julius died before 40 b.c.e. and a son by him would have been over 100 years old in A.D. 70. The Egypt that Jesus and the Virgin fled to was the Qumran area.
The sect of Essenes (sicari) where ultimately responsible for the "War of the Jews" in AD 70/74 but Jesus had broken awy from that group when he said, "It is finished".

thanks, offa
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Old 07-20-2001, 09:38 AM   #16
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man, i have asked this before, and Les denied, but I am gonna ask it of the several folks that have posted the weird, psuedo-biblical/pseudo-historical, quite hysterical gobble-de-gook.
What are you smoking? and where can I get some?

I mean come on, you can't mean most of this stuff, can you?
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Old 07-20-2001, 09:44 AM   #17
Les Benton
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Offa, There are several possibilities to answer your question and I have thought about it.
1.Julias and Cleopatra had a son.
He became Augustus The god of the Roman empire. The possibility exists that Augustus and Jesus were the same man.
2. When Octavian became Augustus he changed his name to Augustus Julias Caesar Octavian. In honor of his uncle. And history has confused the two. The problem with this idea is that Octavian was adopted by Julias so no woman was needed.
3. I believe Cleopatra was about 30 when she died. I am not going to look up the recorded dates right now. But going by the birth and death of Cleopatra and the birth and death dates of Augustus. It would only take a maximum of a 30 year correction for the two to overlap. That is very minor. I think they overlaped without the correction. But I am not sure.
4. Since Octavian was adopted. Chances are historians have the two Julias's confused.
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Old 07-20-2001, 09:48 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Les Benton:
<STRONG>Before this generation I will return... Jesus was telling the truth. He did return and led his armey against Jerusalem killing many if It's inhabitants. What some people can't seem to get through their head is that Jesus was alive approx. 40 years after he pulled the crucifixion scam. He destroyed Jerusalem and murdered the children as punishment for their refusal to worship Caesar. That is why he said "before this generation...because he wanted the parents to see their children murdered.</STRONG>
Meta =&gt; HU?

But he seemed so sincere about that bit bout blessed are the chese makers. I was certain he meant anyone in the dairy industry.
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Old 07-20-2001, 09:49 AM   #19
smugg
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Okay, offa, here's the passage in question:

Quote:
John 19:25 KJV
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
There are three women at the cross:
  • ...his mother,
  • and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas,
  • and Mary Magdalene.

I understand where your mistake is, and now you seem to be too emotionally attached to your interpretation to change it, but do you see how the and separates the women listed? This is the only time Cleophas is mentioned in the Bible and it is likely that he is Mary's (Jesus' mother's) brother or cousin and the second of the three Marys is her sister-in-law, cousin, or biological sister. I don't know much about NT-era Hebrew naming practices, but sisters who both share the name Miriamme would be confusing so the lattermost option is the least likely in my opinion.

Now, it's worth saying that I consider the book of John to be the latest Gospel written and the least reliable from a historical standpoint and the three women at the cross could very well be symbolic or some kind of metaphor but the question is this:

How can you ascribe more weight to this one isolated and somewhat convoluted passage than the (approximately) sixteen other passages that indicate Joseph was Mary's husband and Jesus' father? That is, of course, ignoring for a moment that the passage does not say Cleophas is the husband of Mary.
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Old 07-20-2001, 09:52 AM   #20
smugg
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Quote:
Originally posted by Les Benton:
<STRONG>[snip!]

...Just a guess.</STRONG>
Exactly my point. Thank you. You did, however, omit the word unfounded.
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