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Old 03-16-2001, 06:14 PM   #1
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Post Question on Historical Jesus

I have read a number of threads about whether there was a historical Jesus or not. And I understand that there are not many who claim he existed, outside of his followers. But I can never seem to remember this one thing, who was the ancient source that claimed Jesus was not an actual person? I know there must be someone since this mysterious Romano-Xtian conspiracy could not have included *everyone* at the time. I know that someone somewhere must have figured it out before the skeptics of the modern era, or the post-modern era. So who was it again? It keeps fading from my memory, but then, I am 43 and my memory isn't what it used to be.

Who was it that scoffed in the first few centuries AD at the idea that Jesus actually lived? I know His opponents and their heirs in Babylon said He lived and said He was a sorcerer, to make some attribution of His purported miracles. The Muslims all think He lived and did miracles, as did all the Roman sources we have. There are two passages from Josephus that are not questioned by anyone that speak of Him and His brother James. Which was the passage in Josephus where Josephus suggested that Jesus was a myth? I missed that one.

Now, who was it, again, among those ancient sources of information that said He never existed?

It is such a simple question.

Who?

RGlenCheek
http://reflectiveeclectic.org
 
Old 03-16-2001, 07:11 PM   #2
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Celsus?
 
Old 03-16-2001, 08:10 PM   #3
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Few Roman sources, if any, believed Jesus to be a miracle worker, much less resurrected.

Celsus made mention of Jesus' miracles... then again; he said there were Egyptian magic workers that performed similar miracles, too. Hardly a good source.
 
Old 03-16-2001, 08:15 PM   #4
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RGlenCheek:
I have read a number of threads about whether there was a historical Jesus or not. And I understand that there are not many who claim he existed, outside of his followers.</font>
People who don't believe that there was a historical Jesus are normally called Jesus Myth-ers, and considered by most people to be on the intelligence level of the Fundies. Personally I consider them to be far far below the Fundamentalists.
The idea that there was no historical Jesus is not a concept that should be taken seriously in the least. I suggest you get a decent hypothesis. (If you really want evidence have a look at the Non-Christian references to Jesus thread.)
There are a actually very large number of people who do believe that Jesus was a historical figure and aren't religious... you can believe Jesus existed while being an Atheist if you want.
 
Old 03-17-2001, 01:26 AM   #5
Toto
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tercel:
People who don't believe that there was a historical Jesus are normally called Jesus Myth-ers, and considered by most people to be on the intelligence level of the Fundies. Personally I consider them to be far far below the Fundamentalists.
The idea that there was no historical Jesus is not a concept that should be taken seriously in the least. I suggest you get a decent hypothesis. (If you really want evidence have a look at the Non-Christian references to Jesus thread.)
There are a actually very large number of people who do believe that Jesus was a historical figure and aren't religious... you can believe Jesus existed while being an Atheist if you want.
</font>
Christians have so little real historical support for the idea that Jesus actually existed that they are reduced to name calling and outright lies. How pathetic. Check out this intelligent article on this site:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...e/fiction.html
Toto is offline  
Old 03-17-2001, 02:24 AM   #6
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Now, who was it, again, among those ancient sources of information that said He never existed?</font>
Of course, there are none. But you knew that, didn't you?

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason
 
Old 03-17-2001, 05:02 AM   #7
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[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tercel:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by RGlenCheek:
I have read a number of threads about whether there was a historical Jesus or not. And I understand that there are not many who claim he existed, outside of his followers.</font>
People who don't believe that there was a historical Jesus are normally called Jesus Myth-ers, and considered by most people to be on the intelligence level of the Fundies. Personally I consider them to be far far below the Fundamentalists.

There are highly intelligent people who question the existence of Jesus and there are highly intelligent people who don't. The real issue is, What does the evidence tell us about Jesus? Is the evidence sufficient to warrant the view that he existed or is it not? Some say yes and some say no; however, most say yes.

The idea that there was no historical Jesus is not a concept that should be taken seriously in the least. I suggest you get a decent hypothesis.

These are just your opinions.


(If you really want evidence have a look at the Non-Christian references to Jesus thread.)
There are a actually very large number of people who do believe that Jesus was a historical figure and aren't religious... you can believe Jesus existed while being an Atheist if you want.


This is true. I am a non-Christian who happens to think there is sufficient evidence to believe Jesus probably existed, but not necessarily the one depicted in the NT.

rodahi

 
Old 03-17-2001, 05:03 AM   #8
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hezekiahjones:
Celsus?</font>
Celsus never questioned the existence of Jesus.

rodahi

 
Old 03-17-2001, 05:12 AM   #9
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Toto:
Christians have so little real historical support for the idea that Jesus actually existed that they are reduced to name calling and outright lies. How pathetic. Check out this intelligent article on this site:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...e/fiction.html
</font>
Hi Toto,

I have read a considerable amount on this topic and I have to say that Robert Price makes many good points, but overall, I don't find his argument persuasive. The same goes for Earl Doherty. Certainly, it is possible that Jesus, or at least the Christian Jesus, did not exist.

In my view there is much in the NT that is fiction, but it is possible that not all of it is. Each person has to decide for himself.

rodahi
 
Old 03-17-2001, 05:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RGlenCheek:
I have read a number of threads about whether there was a historical Jesus or not. And I understand that there are not many who claim he existed, outside of his followers. But I can never seem to remember this one thing, who was the ancient source that claimed Jesus was not an actual person? I know there must be someone since this mysterious Romano-Xtian conspiracy could not have included *everyone* at the time. I know that someone somewhere must have figured it out before the skeptics of the modern era, or the post-modern era. So who was it again? It keeps fading from my memory, but then, I am 43 and my memory isn't what it used to be.

Who was it that scoffed in the first few centuries AD at the idea that Jesus actually lived? I know His opponents and their heirs in Babylon said He lived and said He was a sorcerer, to make some attribution of His purported miracles. The Muslims all think He lived and did miracles, as did all the Roman sources we have. There are two passages from Josephus that are not questioned by anyone that speak of Him and His brother James. Which was the passage in Josephus where Josephus suggested that Jesus was a myth? I missed that one.

Now, who was it, again, among those ancient sources of information that said He never existed?

It is such a simple question.

Who?

RGlenCheek
http://reflectiveeclectic.org
</font>
I am not aware of any ancient writer who questioned Jesus existence.

rodahi
 
 

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